Help me decide what is best or least worst!

[Onepollock]

I left my H 2 months ago taking our two young children to my parents. I had a long running post here which I pulled when I found he'd been accessing my MN account.

I left because the atmosphere at home had become really hostile, he was drinking heavily, name calling it ignoring me, refused counselling etc.

2 months on we're no further forwards. Our oldest starts school in Sept and i'm desperate to get home so he can go on bus to school with his friends etc.

I have asked him to leave the house and he'a refused. I have now suggested one night a week and every other Fri and sat he would sleep in house with kids if he agrees not to drink. The rest of the time he would stay at a place we've been offered. This would be until end of year and then be reviewed but would at least get me back in the house. He has now suggested counselling (post seeing a lawyer whereas before he had laughed at me when i suggested it) and i've said i will go with him during this 4 month period.

however he's said no as its 'all on my terms' and I can return to either oexist with him under pre agreed terms or that we should share the house exactly 50/50.

The children aren very young (just 4 and 2.5) and aren't used to me being away from them very much. In the 2 months I've been away he hasn't contacted them at all during the week.

Would you do 50/50 to get back into the house. I think I have accepted our relationship is over but want to know what the right thing is to do for the children.

Thanks.

Thanks. Yes I know I need to be wary. I'm tempted get an agreement drawn up saying we stay if it doesn't work put via counselling and that he cannot move back in unless agreed by us both. Not sure of that would count for much....?

I could never imagine he would threaten suicide he is far too convinced he is right.

What I don't know is if he'd ever say sorry for all the crap he's said and done. He's been such a pig to stay in the house for this long especially as he has a flat that he rents out which would be free of tenants by now.

Having said that, this is positive effort and change so just maybe there's a chance?

One, as previous posters have said, change the locks if you get back in the house. Limit contact with him.

I am not entirely clear if you think things will still work out with him. Somehow because he has done now, under threat of court action, what a reasonable person would have done in the first place, you think it might be okay if you go to counselling?

There is so much one could say here, it is hard to know where to begin. Re-read the second paragraph of your OP, he is agreeing to counselling now because his back is against the wall. You left because he was abusive towards you and drinking heavily (a very positive step on your part for you and dc); after you left, he remained abusive till he was threatened with legal action. You acknowledge he will not apologise for this.

If you get back into the house in ten days time (why not now?!), it will be because you have stood firm. He knows it is important for dc to be there and he is holding out to the last minute, because it is something he can use as leverage. I would be very wary of this.

I would stay in contact with your lawyer and take their advice. Do not agree to or attend counselling until you are back in the house. Even then, I think you would be better advised to insist on several months of 'space' between you to allow things to settle. Focus on you and dc, with scheduled contact times with him, and see what you think about counselling then.

Do read 'Why does he do that' by Lundy Bancroft as justiceofthepeas recommends. This poster is spot on to name what is happening to you. Just because it does not involve physical violence, does not mean it is not abuse.

As I said, if you get back into the house, it is because you stood firm. Keep standing firm. You actually do not need to agree to anything you don't want to or which is not in the best interests of the children, the latter point can be determined with legal advice.

He will give you the house but wants more access to the DC? Be careful you don't agree to overnight, or access in which he could put them in danger with his drinking. Don't be blinded by his sudden 'reasonable-ness', and meet him more than half way.

What about taking the pressure off and accepting you may not be in the house by school start date, but it is more important to do the right thing for you and dc?

Reading how ptumbi has put it strikes me that you are actually into negotiations about how things will be if you separate and the counselling is a red herring to distract you with the thought that everything might somehow still work out. Decisions about contact should be made with legal advice, and in the interests of dc, not under pressure because of the looking school start deadline.

I would say if this is actually a negotiation, do it in mediation, having taken professional advice, to result in a legally binding agreement, even if this takes a bit longer. What you do now re contact will set a precedent for the future.

Looking school start deadline, not looking

The timing of the divorce petition might not have been as you intended but it's a good thing you got it in before he did. I filed first; my friend didn't. She had to read pages of diatribe about how unreasonable she apparently is - and now she has to wait an extra three months to apply for the decree absolute as the respondent. She also got ordered to pay half the costs of his petition - whereas STBX has been ordered to pay all mine. Plus, you know, it was high time STBX realised he wasn't the boss of everything.

Surely changing the locks is illegal?!

Yes Romey I need pressure off. I had planned my Autumn thinking I would not be able to move back in and now he's saying I can. I just feel flustered and he's saying I need to let him know ASAP as the place he's moving to needs building works done on it.

We had a couple of conversations today. One where he snapped at me and I thought why do I ever want to live in a situation where I'm spoken to like that and the second later, which was much improved and started to make sense. Apparently I can move back in but after 2 months we'd review. I said 2 months was too soon and I'd need a guarantee from him that if it didn't work out he wouldn't move back in as I'd have to leave again with the children. He said he wouldn't move back in if it wasn't working out. So felt much better.

Then he said he felt proud of himself for how he's managed the last 3 months and despite the legal 'madness' I've put him through he's prepared to see if things might work out! Obviously I had to see a solicitor because our relationship he descended into such a bad situation I felt I had to leave with the children and then he refused to move out of our house so I needed to speak to them again. He is such an arse but more sinisterly if he believes this he is either lying to himself or trying to make me chronically doubt what happened. I suspect the former.

I think I would only go back with a written agreement drawn up via solicitor to say he can only move back with my consent. If not I am better to stay where I am.

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"I think I would only go back with a written agreement drawn up via solicitor to say he can only move back with my consent. If not I am better to stay where I am."

Definitely.

If you have a document stating that he can only go back with your consent, then you're entitled to change locks. It happens all the time when keys are lost.

If it turns out that he complains about it, it's easier for you if he goes to court over that than if you go to court to kick him out based on that agreement, or have to move out again.

Yes, I am going to put it bluntly, it would be madness to go back without a formal agreement. As you say, you had planned your autumn so don't let him fluster and pressure you. He is trying to tie you in knots. You need to retain clarity.

The Jekyll and Hyde moment where he snapped and a minute later was civil. Note that. He can control his behaviour. Snapping is his real feelings; civil is intended to convince and talk you round. What you are getting with the civil him is a mask to get you back on side to do what he wants.

The re-writing history is gaslighting; making himself the victim and blaming you is a form of psychological abuse. He is making you doubt your reality, also it makes you defend your actions, and as soon as you start to defend something, you feel guilty and question yourself. He is also accepting no responsibility for the situation.

I think when you have lived with and love[d] someone, it is very hard to recognise and believe what they are doing to you. Your reality is valid, you did not suddenly wake up and decide to take legal action, there is nothing to defend or feel guilty about.

The other thing I would say, and this is from experience, think seriously about how much money you have got to spend on legal fees. Negotiating and getting an agreement drawn up is going to cost you money. This is money that later cannot be spent on court, if he stalls over signing or flouts the agreement. If he is in any way difficult about getting the agreement drawn up, I would say to think very carefully about whether or not it would be better to proceed to court. I know that sounds drastic and you want to proceed as amicably as possible, but the danger of negotiating with an emotionally abusive person is that they exhaust you emotionally and financially.

Def get it all in writing, preferably by a shl. These are terms, not just opinions, wants. You have DC to think about; as you say, they cannot be disrupted again in 2/3/6 months, out whenever he feels like having a go at you.

OP you should no more consider moving back in with this abusive man than you should consider move in with Kim Jong-un. Someone on another thread said something that resonated with me (my situation is quite similar) which was that the guilt we feel about leaving is caused by the conditioning - they have trained us to subjugate all our own needs to theirs. Leaving them is the ultimate rebellion: it ignores their needs completely and puts our needs and the children's first. It's always ok to stand up for ourselves and protect our children from a nasty bully and a dysfunctional home environment. We don't have to wait for a good time that won't inconvenience the bully as much.

Romey you have articulated perfectly exactly how I feel. I've texted tonight saying yes please I'd love to move back in but no rush and let's get an agreement drawn up which states you wouldn't move back in unless we're both happy you do.

He's already said he's not happy to do that. I agree I can see me sinking another £3k into this without getting anywhere and I can't afford to.

In my head I had moved on because he had told me there was no chance I was moving back in. Now I hear that I can with various conditions attached but its like coming back from the brink. In a strange kind of way I was looking forward to moving on.

He keeps leaving the final decision with me but I want him to be responsible for something. If I say yes with a solicitor's agreement then he can be the one to decide.

its like coming back from the brink. In a strange kind of way I was looking forward to moving on

I'm very tired today, so I hope that what I am going to say makes sense.

I think the point here is quite simple - you can still make the choice to move on. He's trying to draw you back into a situation you have already made the decision to walk away from. You have offered a reasonable compromise, which is that you move back in, but with a legal agreement as to the conditions, and he has rejected that (because he thinks you are easier to manipulate/bully than the law/your solicitor, and he knows that you want back in the house for schooling reasons).

The reason he is leaving the final decision with you is because he knows that moving on is something you will feel guilty about (which is also why he is re-writing history to make himself the victim). He is putting you in the position of having to do something not in your nature (which is to take legal action to get back into the house and get him to leave). He knows it is not in your nature, because you have been more than accomodating thus far to the crap he has thrown at you, and you are a reasonable person who wants a negotiated, amicable solution.

I think the questions are: how much validity would a legal agreement have? And how would you enforce it?

If he was a reasonable person, acting in good faith, would you even need an agreement? In fact, would you even be in this position? An agreement relies on good faith, and it relies on both parties being reasonable. What guarantee have you got, even if he says yes to the agreement, that once you have negotiated and paid for it, he will sign it? I'd only do this if you have the 3k and you can afford to put it to trying to sort this out amicably, because you believe the benefits of doing this outweigh what you would get by going to court.

By going to court, you are accepting that your marriage is over; and that you have no other option. You are also becoming the person who has to make that decision, regardless of whether he takes any responsiblity or not. If you don't feel ready to make that decision, then don't. But equally, don't let him pressure and manipulate you because you want to get back into the house. Stay put where you are, get on with your autumn as planned, limit contact with him, and focus on you and DC, until you are clear about what you want to do (with appropriate legal advice).

He keeps leaving the final decision with me but I want him to be responsible for something

This is what will cost you, probably.
You can draw up the agreement, send it to him, give a deadline and move on depending on his response.
In this case, he could have a choice of selling the house or move out with the agreement of not moving back without your consent. If he doesn't decide, then you are forced to push legally for what you can (and could get).

Just move on then. If you feel like you keeping coming to the brink, walk away from the brink.

As I said earlier, he will just keep pressing those buttons. It's up to you to stop giving him the opportunity to do so. He knows you want the house. So give up the prospect and move on.

A brief update. I have moved back into our house and he has moved and, on the agreement he doesn't drink while he looks after the children, he is going to day every wed night and every other Fri and Sat in the house.

He said he didn't want the divorce to go through. He wants to try and make it work so I feel I must try and see if there's a chance. Have booked a counsellor's appt etc.

I hate the reality of not seeing the children (2&4) every day. They were away this weekend for 3 nights and I found it terribly hard. I can't bear this being our future but I suppose I will have to adjust to this.

The weird thing is he says he wants to see if it will work but does NOTHING about it. He is fuming that he's had to move out, he seemed so angry when he dropped the children off yesterday. I said if he wants to talk to call me but there just doesn't seem to be any desire from him to sort it out. I know I should be over this by now but I just don't understand what is going through his head.

He has left our Joint account in bad shape and I will be on a really tight budget after he has reduced his contributions to cover the cost of the bed sit he's renting. Why do I feel guilty? I know he didn't feel guilty or concerned about me when I moved out and I had lots of extra costs from not living in the house. It's as if I don't really matter.

It is very nice to be home though!

Is that he is going to stay in the house one week night and every other weekend?

Have you worked out how you are going to prevent him from turning that into living there full time? It seems like very blurred boundaries to me. It doesn't feel like that is a situation you will easily maintain control of.

You feel guilty because you have been conditioned to feel like that. Put it to the back of your mind. You have nothing to feel guilty about and you are being a lot nicer than I would be by letting him stay over.

"A brief update. I have moved back into our house and he has moved and, on the agreement he doesn't drink while he looks after the children, he is going to day every wed night and every other Fri and Sat in the house.

He said he didn't want the divorce to go through. He wants to try and make it work so I feel I must try and see if there's a chance. Have booked a counsellor's appt etc".

You are really no further forward at all.

One of the 3cs of alcoholism is that you cannot control this, you are still trying to control this in some fashion. This is not going to work out at all well either for you or your children who are still being subjected to him.

Well he would not want the divorce to go through because he stands to lose far more from that (i.e. you as his codependent and enabler) than you ever would!.

And yet again the sunken costs fallacy rears its ugly head; you forget that the damage here has already been done. You are still being far too nice and far too reasonable due to your own inbuilt conditioning; he will piss on any so called agreement you draw up with him.

Please tell me that the counsellor appointment is not a joint one and is solely for you. That would be sensible.

Why on earth have you agreed for him to stay two days a week?
As others said he'll only inch his way back in.
You said yourself that he's fuming he's had to move and doesn't want a divorce.
You really should be changing locks now and seeking a residency order.

Also, why do you believe that he won't drink while the children are around if he hasn't fulfilled that promise before?
It can easily be predicted that very soon you'll be back where you started. He'll be very pleased he got round you and you'll be miserable again. :(

You do not have to agree to him being in the house, nor do you have to agree to him having dc three days a week. They are very small. You have been their primary carer.

Honestly, take legal advice, and discuss via mediation contact out of the house in a neutral venue, if his house is not suitable. It can be daytime contact. You don't have to agree to something you don't believe to be in dc interests, unless court enforced.

He should be paying CSA minimum at least.

I do believe seeing their Dad is in their best interests if he doesn't drink heavily. I also need somewhere to live as I couldn't keep living with my parents. This was a way for me to move back before term starts for our oldest and I do think it was a big step for him to move out.

I have a divorce petition open and I have said that I am keeping that running. It is more than likely that I will go forward with it but I have been asking for him to move out for ages and that is what I have finally got. I have to see if there's a chance to sort things out so I'm clear once and for all.

It seems fairly clear at the moment as he is absolutely livid about moving out. He can barely bring himself to speak to me. But I was never allowed to be angry that he'd forced me out!

You don't really have to stick to the supposed agreement.
He's still being a dick and entitled by being angry with you. You can change the agreement if you like. As I'm sure he will at the first opportunity.

I agree it's in the children's best interest to see him, but he doesn't have to stay in the house 3 days a week.

I do believe seeing their Dad is in their best interests if he doesn't drink heavily

I am not saying it is not. Of course it is. But does it have to be in the house, and if so. does it have to be overnights? Consider where your boundaries lie, write them down now so that they don't get blurred.

I guess I am coming from the POV where I would consider the relationship over, but you seem to be, as yet, undecided about that. In the nicest possible way, this makes you vulnerable to him trying to get his feet back through the door full-time, without you really being sure if that is what you want.

The best possible advice I can give you is that you can see if things will work out from a distance, without the pressure of him being in the house; maybe let things settle? And if he does not accept that, then really, I would question whether things are salvageable.

Consider where your boundaries lie, write them down now so that they don't get blurred.

This is a good idea and I think you need to make sure he sees it and agrees what is written down. I would include that he forfeits the right to stay over at all if he once arrives drunk or drinks alcohol while he is there. If he does that, it is game over and he sees the children under your supervision in the daytime only.

He doesn't sound like the sort to ever acknowledge your needs and feelings which is why you need to continue with the divorce proceedings. He has given you the very minimum concession he feels he can get away with to get you back into the family home. I don't imagine for a moment that he intends to stay out for long.

Stand firm and communicate clearly.

You are right to keep your children's needs and best interests at the centre of things but I'm not sure that having him move in and out of the house like this will be the best thing for them in the long run.