Is my marriage in crisis?

[ChaChaChaChanges]

I am married, we have children together, and I am currently in turmoil. I suspect I am being ridiculous.

DH and I have been together for almost ten years. We met when I was married to someone else (he was single at the time). We had an affair, and I left my first husband for now DH.

I fell unexpectedly pregnant 7 years ago. There was never any question that we would keep our baby. However, I developed suicidal PND, which I didn't seek help for. (DH and I both thought that everyone gets the baby blues, and DH in particular was very keen not to cause worry for our families by seeking help or telling anyone about it.)

After 18 months my PND improved and we conceived our second DC (planned). Sadly, I again got suicidal PND. This time I insisted on seeking help, and was on ADs for 2 years. I came off the ADs in Summer 2012. I wonder if I am getting depressed again.

Since DC2 was born, I have felt that I love DH but am no longer in love with DH. I have had to make myself have sex with DH, and have not enjoyed it 'once I was into it'. I haven't hated it either, but I got no pleasure from it. I would prefer not to.

I thought that that was enough. That we could effectively parent together, live together, make a life together as best friends. However, over time I have found that we have less and less in common, and some of the things he does are making me very resentful (leaving the bulk of housework to me despite us both working FT; putting his career ahead of mine; various bodily things like scratching himself and picking his nose in front of me that turn my stomach; he's a wind up merchant, generally at my expense; even his crappy jokes irritate me now).

To give him credit where it's due, he is at heart a kind, decent man. He loves me very much (he says). He tries to make me happy. He takes on equal child-caring responsibilities at the weekend (I do the vast majority during the week because he's at work; I get up at 4 each morning to get work done before the children wake because I simply can't get all my work done in core hours whereas he can work as late as he wants), he does the garden, he loves our children very much, he lets me have a bath each weekend evening while he does bedtime, he cooks the dinner most evenings when he's home (sometimes he has dinner with clients or colleagues).

I recently met someone. He has no interest in me whatsoever - the feelings are entirely on my side (I have a thread in Chat about it if anyone wants to look). However, it has thrown the issues in my marriage into sharp relief.

I don't know what to do. Do I muddle on with DH, keeping the family together? It would be largely for his benefit and for the children. Do I push again for marriage counselling (which DH has in the past refused)? Do I tell him I'm unhappy?

Any advice would be most appreciated.

It sounds perfectly reasonable. But as you have said, his solutions do not involve him doing anything so I am slightly frustrated that you cant accept that if he doesnt want to change then he wont. And he doesnt want to.

As I said in a pp, you cant save this marriage on your own. If he wont step up then can you accept that it is over? How long will you give it?

I think that being more specific will help. Not a woolly "I want you to do more" but specifically "I will not be getting you up or running your bath anymore. I want you to do the morning childcare....etc" and say that if things are no better in 3 months then its over.

It sounds crap.
You don't give him the opportunity to say any of that.
You have your list and if he doesn't agree then it's over.
Simple as that.
There is no more compromise here.
It's not a burden.
It's every day life that we all live through and where we ALL need to pull our weight.
Crickey - you still haven't 'got it'!

Do not go to couples counselling with an abusive manipulator.
That is just asking for trouble.
YOU definitely need some individual counselling though.
Get that as fast as you can.

I could do with calm, unemotional posts - just for the next few hours... Getting angry or emotional won't serve me well tonight.

I think your plan for tonight is a good one. Small but necessary steps. I hope it goes well and an easing of your stresses is on the way

I have made a list of all of the chores required to run our household, how they are currently allocated, and how I think they could be reallocated between us to make it fairer

Thing is, things you list are fairly standard basic ordinary tasks that he should be doing anyway. They shouldn't have to be negotiated.

Does anyone have a link to that step by step guide to ensuring each partner gets equal leisure time? It was a really simple guide. I think that might help.

I do so, so feel for you. A highly competent professional who's having to come to terms with being exploited & abused in her persona life. It must be really tough. Here's a friendly smile & a pat on the shoulder from an internet stranger

Thank you.

ChaCha I am in a somewhat similar position to you and I can relate to much of what you say.

Ime the acceptance that things are not going to change and that separation is a viable solution is a gradual one that you get comfortable with over time. I suspect your thoughts are where mine were about a year ago - I panicked at the thought of separation, didn't see how it was possible and was desperate to make things work. A year on, although I am still in the marriage I am increasingly reconciled to and confident about the possibility of separating in future. I understand that other posters are just trying to help you see the reality of your situation, but I think that insisting on sudden acceptance of the need to end the marriage is just going to put you on the defensive.

From the point of view of your talk with DH tonight, if you are not ready to consider separation I would suggest that if he refuses to increase his share of family tasks, you tell him that in order to reduce your unmanageable workload you will no longer be doing any tasks for him that a responsible adult should be able to do for themselves. So you don't do his washing or ironing, you don't wake him up or run him a bath, you don't open his mail or pay/remind him about his bills, you don't make/remind him about appointments for doctor/dentist, you don't make his lunch, you don't buy/post presents for his family, etc.

If he doesn't do these things, the consequences will fall on him, not you or DCs, so this approach is less stressful for you. The acid test of what you should leave for him to do is to ask yourself "Does he do that for me?" If the answer is no, then don't do it for him until he steps up and does his fair share of family work.

The other thing you should seriously consider is booking an appointment to speak to a solicitor. You don't have to take anything further, but a chat to get yourself informed can be very empowering.

He will offer solutions. His solutions will be:
- to visit the GP for help with depression
- to reduce my working hours
- to ask our nanny to do more (there might be a grain of truth in that, but I don't want to get side-tracked)
- to learn to let the chores go

All of those "solutions" position YOU as the problem (and tend to characterize you as mentally or emotionally unstable, into the bargain). You're not the problem: his attitude is.

All of those "solutions" position YOU as the problem (and tend to characterize you as mentally or emotionally unstable, into the bargain). You're not the problem: his attitude is.

Totally agree.

From the point of view of your talk with DH tonight, if you are not ready to consider separation I would suggest that if he refuses to increase his share of family tasks, you tell him that in order to reduce your unmanageable workload you will no longer be doing any tasks for him that a responsible adult should be able to do for themselves. So you don't do his washing or ironing, you don't wake him up or run him a bath, you don't open his mail or pay/remind him about his bills, you don't make/remind him about appointments for doctor/dentist, you don't make his lunch, you don't buy/post presents for his family, etc.

MrBuster - what would stop him escalating by refusing to do the handful of things he does do (basically shopping and sometimes cooking dinner)? Would we each do our own shopping and cooking, with separate shelves in the fridge and freezer? Because I don't think I could bear the children seeing that level of 'cold war' between their parents.

In all honesty the best thing you can do is to leave him. It will give a clear message that you are not going to put up with his shit anymore and that you mean it. That you will only come back if things change and STAY changed, that if he starts backsliding again you will go and stay gone. One chance only.

Bogeyface - do you mean leave him with the children? Because I don't think I could bear that either. Or take the children with me?

He will not leave the house, of that I'm sure.

Oooohhhh MrBuster I like that suggestion!
no longer be doing any tasks for him that a responsible adult should be able to do for themselves
One to consider OP?

My DH once complained that I didn't hang his shirts up when I was hanging the washing up in the evening (we were washing every 2 days as a minimum at this time). I used the bathroom first, cleared the airer, hung all but his shirts, he went through 2nd and got left hanging them up (we run a dehumidifier in the bathroom). I questioned why this was 'unfair' (as I was driving to his work to drop him off on the way to mine) and suggested that I would swap with him if he wished, hang my tops up and leave him with the rest.

Since that day I have not had any complaints about the laundry, and it is often him that instigates putting a load on - either of us might take it up and either of us might hang it up. The washing fairy sometimes takes rather a long time to actually clear anything off the airer, but even those visits are now much more common and completely unprompted.

Shopping - mostly on-line (which he organises, with me suggesting things at any stage that go on the next list). Sometimes at the weekend we all go, but more often now he'll go on his own and I'll take DS and the dog out.

Supper time - we're currently eating very different foods most of the time, but he will often put something on at the same time as he is cooking so that there's something I will want to eat available when I get home from work.

There are some things that don't get done - but I deal with those because he does other things completely unprompted and we make a team together.

Your 6am start sounds like a very good idea - I hope that this works and he actually starts doing something to be part of the partnership rather than belittle your role in the family.

Thinking of you tonight, ChaCha.

I have not had time to read your updates, just home, but will do later. Calm and strengthening thoughts to you

If he wont leave (although he could be made to, I understand why you may not want to go down that route), then you and the kids. I would never suggest you leave them with him, if only for the fact that he probably wouldnt have a clue what needed to be done for them!

Even for a couple of weeks holiday or visiting family would be a short sharp lesson in how much you do. Especially if you resist the temptation to get everything sorted beforehand and just let him get on with it.

He needs to understand that you mean what you say. This is going to be difficult because his manipulation has always had you caving in in the past so he will assume that it will work again. By giving a non negotiable end result and sticking to it, you will put the message across loud and clear "THIS ENDS NOW".

I agree with a PP that perhaps seeing a solicitor would be a good idea, just so you know exactly what you can do if he does refuse to step up. For example he cant just refuse to leave, there are things that can be done so you both end up with a home suitable for your children to live in/stay at for access visits. He doesnt have all the power unless you give it to him, and I suspect that you have been doing that for many years.

I know I sound harsh but I was in a relationship similar to yours when I had my eldest DC, it was hell on toast with added sprinkles. I too got PND and my ex H's reaction was to enrol with the TA on the 1 weekend in 3 that he got off. I left him when I was still very ill, my MHN suggested I wait until I was well again, but I couldnt. And you know what? I was off the antidepressant within weeks and was miraculously cured! Every day took me to a lower and lower place. It cost me my job, my employment prospects and my mental health. I cant bear to think that you are going through it too.

Good luck with tonight. Let us know how it goes.

He will absolutely blame you and suggest you make changes to make your life easier. I suspect that will be his starting point. But sick to your guns. Have clear objectives and boundaries that you will not give up on. And consequences. Give him time for this to sink in. It might take days but I suspect he will step up if he realises he will lose you. But only if you make it clear that is the option.
That said. Give it a few months and he may back track so you need to do this over and over. Sorry about that bit.

Apologies OP, didn't mean to post and run.

It doesn't need to be a "cold war" situation. If you have a workable arrangement whereby both of you share the cooking, then there is no need to religiously separate everything - it is the tasks where he isn't putting in some effort that are the issue.

The bottom line is that your current arrangement is not sustainable. You can view this quite pragmatically - in a household where both marital partners work full time, you shoulder a disproportionately large burden of the domestic workload and you don't have time to do all that needs to be done. Therefore either 1) you pay an external person to do some of it or 2) your DH steps up and takes some of the workload on.

If he won't do his fair share of tasks that benefit everyone because he knows that if he leaves something you'll do it for him, then he needs an incentive to do his share. The incentive that tends to work with selfish people is that failing to complete a task directly disadvantages them.

It doesn't need to be presented as a threat or with hostility. You can simply say that you have too much to do, and he will have to do more as he is the other adult in the house. After all, the DCs can't suddenly take on lots of household tasks, can they? You could give him a choice - he can muck in with communal chores, or he can be responsible for the portion of the workload that he generates.

If he's anything like my DH, be prepared for some fairly manipulative attempts on his part to emotionally blackmail you. Along the lines of :

DH: "If you loved me you would do my washing."

Your response: "You don't do my washing. Does that mean you don't love me?".

DH "You used to do my washing when we were first married."

Your response: "Yes, well, we didn't have DCs then so there was only 2 people's worth of work to do. Now there is 4 people's worth of work to do - do you think it is fair that I have to take on all the extra work and you none?"

Good luck, OP. Your DH's responses to your perfectly reasonable requests will tell you a lot about how prepared he is to be a genuine and equal partner. If he wants to act selfish and entitled, or emotionally blackmail you into continuing you current division of labour, that will tell you all you need to know really.

I'm sitting next to him on the train home. I feel sick. I just want to get the conversation over with now.

The way I came to look at it was that leaving was not an event, it is a process. You start where the OP is, when you realise there is a problem which needs addressed jointly. You try a reasonable approach to addressing it, and a lot hinges on what happens next ... And next can be over days, weeks, months or years; there can be reasonable approach after reasonable approach till you snap. But it is very rarely waking up, seeing the crap situation you are in, and walk out the door. There is always the hope it can be fixed, till you realise it can't. But I think the OP is right that she needs to give him the chance to come good, but with clear expectations and boundaries.

The excuses you suspect he will come up with: pretty much what xH came out with. Though I had not had depression, so he tried to make believe my unhappiness was all 'stress'. Sitting in a doctors reading a poster on stress and telling me it described me, telling close relatives I was suffering from stress, he created an illness I didn't have to explain it away. (without offering to help relieve the 'stress').

TV programmes - there was one programme I liked to watch an hour a week, he sat and either talked through it or ridiculed the characters and plot and me for watching it. Do you get to listen to your own music?

I think keep a journal and write everything down from here on. I agree speak to a solicitor, so you know your legal position and are coming from a position of strength.

The positive outcome is that your husband takes what you say on board and you are able to work together to get over this. The negative outcome, aside from him batting any v of change out of the water, is that he takes it on board, but in bad grace and the techniques of abuse and control shift. Hence the suggestion of keeping a journal.

I am tired, so will leave it there. At the moment, you just need to get through this evening. No big decisions need to be made beyond that.

All of those "solutions" position YOU as the problem (and tend to characterize you as mentally or emotionally unstable, into the bargain). You're not the problem: his attitude is.

I just thought this post was worth another read, it's spot on I think.

I'm home.

It seemed to go as well any difficult conversation could. DH listened with good grace, agreed to take on morning resp

... Responsibilities with effect from next Monday, negotiated swaps of a couple of things on the chores list but basically accepted the lot, and agreed to fairer TV time. He said he was sorry, wants me to be happy and loves me very much.

He did say he will forget things in the early weeks (when he does I will make sure he bears the consequences). He also said he may not do things the same way as me (fine) or to a different standard (potentially not fine, and I said so).

He said I have been very stressed and angry lately (true; wonder why?) and that if he still thinks I'm not happy by the end of September then he wants me to find a counsellor for me to talk to.

So. Cautiously optimistic. My two big fears are that his actions won't match his words (and/or he'll start well but slip into old bad habits) and that it's too late - I don't feel that I love him anymore, although perhaps that will come.

But him agreeing mornings is a big "win" for me - no waking him, no 4am starts, no running baths....

First of all, well done for having the difficult conversation.

The negative which jumps out at me is - 'if he thinks I am still not happy by September...' - it is really up to you when you see a counsellor, but more importantly, bringing it round to your mood deflects from the point of the conversation about his sharing the chores. Wonder how he would feel if he were being used as the household skivvy and whether he might just be stressed because it was just too much. This is nothing to do with your mood, it is basic fairness (the lack of which has affected your mood).

That apart, fingers crossed he can get on top of the morning starts and you can get some sleep, for starters. You can figure out what you feel about it longer term. Just take one step at a time for the moment. You need to see how it goes from here.

(you are entitled to be angry, btw, at how you have been treated, it is a natural response, not one deserving of a mental health professional).

Sometimes it feels so sad to find it so difficult to achieve what should be simple. To have to battle and compromise to get a small concession. The question you ask is why didn't he think of it himself.