Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

The "men as a class" thing refers to a very basic fact of human psychology, one that exists in all cultures and is the source of pretty much every conflict, ever. Human naturally group people into "us" and "them." "Us," is the people I identify with, the people I love and protect and will stand up for. "Them" ranges from people I have no interest in, to people I hate and will kill if necessary. Who falls into the "us" and "them" group has big implications in terms of power and conflict. Groups have certain terms of membership, traditions, expectations, etc. So if you're part of the "Irish" ingroup certain things are expected of you by fellow members of the ingroup and certain things are thought of you by non-members. Whether those things are true or not is another thing entirely.
Children are taught from day one to identify with their sex - they are constantly referred to as "boys" and "girls" and messages are sent as to what is a "girl thing" and a "boy thing." So two separate ingroups are set up. Sometimes they are referred to as "classes."
What the phrase "men as a class despise women as a class" means is that membership of the "man" ingroup is based on separating women and despising them. Being socialised as a "man" means seeing women as separate and different and lesser than men.
Again, I would say that "despise" is not a good word for it. I would say that men are socialised in the "man" group and the power of that group is very much built on disempowering the "woman" group, but they don't see that.

Doing anything like a girl is only considered an insult when it refers to something that stereotypically girls aren't very good at - so I've heard it about running like a girl, and throwing like a girl. Have you ever heard someone say "do your exams like a girl", or "cook like a girl"?

And lets not forget the intense sexual contempt that is so deeply ingrained. I don't know whether this is still the case, but when I was at secondary school, if you had walked into a classroom of 13 year olds and said the word "fish" or "fishy" you would have encountered a lot of sniggering and nasty comments about fannies.
I can remember learning, at 11 or 12, that girls and womens' private parts stank and were nasty. I didn't know that before-it wouldn't have occured to me to feel ashamed and worried about my own genitals.It was just part of my body.
Where does that come from, that contempt for women's genitals? I wasn't just my school, right?

You insult a man by comparing him to a woman. He's a 'big girl's blouse', he acts 'like a girl', in a group addressed scornfully as 'ladies' etc. To insult a woman you compare her to an animal... 'cow', 'bitch'. Linguistic pecking order reflecting the same contempt of women we're exploring here.

On the map-no, I havnt heard anyone say that, because it's not negative. Like a Girl is always a negative.

"What the phrase "men as a class despise women as a class" means is that membership of the "man" ingroup is based on separating women and despising them. Being socialised as a "man" means seeing women as separate and different and lesser than men."

That's something I fundamentally disagree with, as you seem to suggest its inevitable. As long as penises exist, men will despise women.

Like a girl isn't always negative in my experience, it's often very positive

"Have you ever heard someone say "do your exams like a girl", or "cook like a girl"?"

No... but you'll notice that, whilst the majority of cooking is still done by women around the world, it took male 'chefs' to transform the simple act of feeding people into a mysterious and exclusive 'art form' :)

"Like a girl isn't always negative in my experience, it's often very positive"

Name one occasion where 'like a girl' hasn't been used in a pejorative sense

there was that time that my friend Sue ...

Ok fair enough, but indirectly. How often do we hear it as a positive if a man is "in touch with his feminine side?"

and although it has mixed message, who remembers this as a child

"
What are little boys made of?
What are little boys made of?

    Snips and snails
    And puppy-dogs' tails,

That's what little boys are made of.

What are little girls made of?
What are little girls made of?

    Sugar and spice
    And everything nice,

That's what little girls are made of."

Oh god, OnTheMap, you can't be seriously arguing this!

seriously arguing what?

Arguing that there is all this positive stuff we associate with women and somehow haven't noticed. That there is equal despising from both men and women to the opposite sex. Purlease!

Men have privilege (whether they wish to admit this or not) and it is this that they protect at the expense of women. In my experience - all men do this because they fail to give up their privilege.

This doesn't mean that they despise women, they just enjoy the trappings of being male more than they like women.They are not willing to give it up. For most women - we put up with this level of inferiority (rightly or wrongly)

However, there are certainly some men who do despise women, but they are very easy to weed out. They make it all too obvious and expose themselves given time.

Flatpacker, I've not said there's equal despising - I suspect, probably more men despise women than the other way around. But there are lots of positive things associated with women - being caring, empathic, being gentle, tolerant, etc

YY Cailin

Can you imagine that seperation of tiny children into two tribes of any other characteristic.

An Orange/Green teddy brought to Protestant/Catholic newborns.
Teacher saying 'Now Blacks & Whites lets line up....'

No way would it be done. Because we know emphasising difference causes conflict, and we should be emphasising similarities. It promotes solidarity, empathy and a feeling of belonging together.

It's strange how we spend a lifetime emphasising the division between the sexes and then expect you to marry out of the tribe!

"What the phrase "men as a class despise women as a class" means is that membership of the "man" ingroup is based on separating women and despising them. Being socialised as a "man" means seeing women as separate and different and lesser than men."

That's something I fundamentally disagree with, as you seem to suggest its inevitable. As long as penises exist, men will despise women.

I don't suggest it's inevitable, actually I would argue the opposite. If we are socialised to believe one thing, then we can be socialised to believe another. Once upon a time being "British" meant being socialised to believe "natives" in Africa were lesser beings who needed to be civilised and given religion in order to stop them being savages. Is that still a generally accepted idea in British society? Of course not. There are some people who still believe black Africans are inferior of course, but it is not an accepted British belief.

Equally, over time, I think it is possible to break down the ingroup/outgroup situation that exists between men and women by reducing the idea that we are fundamentally different and opposed to each other. I would like to ultimately see a situation (which I feel is very far away) in which we are all humans, some of whom have a penis, some a vagina, some of whom give birth, some of whom don't.

Society is set up to run for the benefit of rich white males.
We live in a time where the poor are blamed for their poverty.
The rich are getting richer and more people become poor or live in poverty.
The majority of those in poverty are women and children

So the "men despise women" can also be recast as "rich people despise poor people" - the top of any society despises those below them and fiercely guard the entire edifice of privilege that gives them that advantage.

Men are socialised very early to see girls as the broken version of boys. Boys are punished and ostracised for acting "like a girl" (mostly by other boys and men). Girls are more tolerated for being a "tom boy" but even then they are seen as aspiring to maleness (which they of course can't achieve) and being "a bit like a boy". Being a girl is seen as inferior in terms of cognitive abilities and physical abilities. How many times has my DD been told "girls can't run" "girls can't jump" "girls don't climb trees" "girls are no good at maths" and all that crap. She achieves something and is then told she shouldn't be any good at that because she is female and therefore a freak for doing these things.

Many men do not value women's skills - and many women don't either - because they align with the views of those in power who are men, and so the cycle continues.

There is a lot of debate as to why gender stereotypes are shown to be untrue repeatedly in studies yet still the beliefs about men and women's differences persists. Your maths' ability is not related to your gender - yet the belief that it is remains. Why is this??? Can society not tolerate the idea that men and women are actually not very different?

I think you can despise a woman or a man without despising all women or all men.

I believe that as a group they do hate us.

Why else would they tolerate global gendercide?

My dad resents women. He complained that his mother worked and that all the women in his family were the bosses in their homes.

He just doesn't 'see' structural discrimination against women.

"there are lots of positive things associated with women - being caring, empathic, being gentle, tolerant, etc"

Those are the social constructs that are pumped into women almost from birth. Stereotypes reinforced by centuries of women being persecuted if they weren't seen to be caring, empathetic, gentle, tolerant etc. It's back to the religious concept of the 'perfect woman' ... virginal, non-complaining, inactive, docile, uneducated handmaidens. Whenever a woman steps outside the stereotype, she's fair game for all kinds of shitty treatment.

Your maths' ability is not related to your gender - yet the belief that it is remains.

Amongst both girls and boys. It is a strong belief and a self perpetuating one. There was a study which showed that gender stereotyping had a real measurable effect on Maths grades. Both girls and boys were asked to do a Maths test, there were two versions of the cover page split randomly. One of them had a box to tick M/F as well as name, class etc. The girls who were reminded they were girls beforehand did worse than the girls who didn't have the reinforcement.

Interesting, and makes you wonder about the more subtle manifestations.

"I believe that as a group they do hate us.

Why else would they tolerate global gendercide?"

I really struggle with this idea of a global "us and them". Right now, I suspect many of us tolerate the death of children in Africa because they don't have adequate sanitation. Do we as a group despise African children?

Valuing women for being caring and tolerant means you can berate them when they're not caring and tolerant, ie, when they don't run around making everything better for everyone while tolerating shitty treatment.