Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

no one is saying all men or every single man - it is men as a class. within that there will be men who are bottom of the pile amongst men, but often their female counterparts will be even worse off

livingzuid i'm sorry that you've had such horrible experiences with other women. who do you think benefits from women fighting and belittling each other?

i think despise is an adequate word:

despise
Line breaks: des|pise
Pronunciation: /d??sp??z /
VERB

[WITH OBJECT]
Feel contempt or a deep repugnance for

of course it can always be further qualified

Yes I think my XP despises women in general, and me in particular.

Woman are not the only ones responsible but they can take the reign.fOf course if they want the status quo to continue they can leave it to the men. Why would men, who are apparently so abhorrent, wish to change things that benefit them? It is illogical to expect that if the current situation is like it is because of the power men hold.

I never realised how many women really hate men until I came onto MN.

I am not too keen on men who take a statement and turn it around. No comment on what this thread is actually about, Neo ? Just a "women do it too" from you ? Such insight.

i love, like and respect many men, but that's not going to stop me calling out the privileges they enjoy at the expense of women

I don't see much man hating on here at all. Though I do see it claimed a lot - not sure what is at all man-hating about this thread?

I do see on MN, a lot of people talking truthfully about what is actually going on in their lives, oftentimes behind closed doors to the rest of the world.

I think the phrase "men as a class despite women as a class" is meaningless and provocative.

I do think men are blind to the realities of life for women and are oblivious to their own privilege. That causes them to judge women as though we have the same agency and power as them. They fail to recognise the power differential and in doing so they tie women's hand even further. They benefit from our lesser power but also blame us for the circumstances that result from the our lesser power.

I know some really good men, the best men I can hope to meet IMO. My DH is one of them. But it has taken those men 30+ years to open their eyes to any of the inequalities women suffer. They have sailed through life thinking all was dandy and fooled themselves that sexism and oppression were things that happened "out there" at the hands of lesser men.
It is only as they get older and have their own children (particularly when they have daughters) that they see they have contributed to women's oppression by believing that women should cover up in order to "stay safe," by taking advantage of their wives' labour to further their own lives and careers while their wives suffer and lag behind, by not challenging friends and workmates who come out with openly sexist attitudes and rape jokes. They have seen sexism as an active thing that you do, and they have seen their passive acceptance of the way things are as not a problem.
DH is finally getting that passivity is not enough. He is actively working to combat the effects of sexism and I'm very proud of him.

Using blame-laden language like "men despise women" serves no purpose IMO.

cog I don't understand. He didn't hate women in general. He had lots of female colleagues and a female boss who he greatly respected. It was just me. He hated himself far more than he hated me I can assure you. Towards the end it was emotionally abusive on many levels to me but then, I didn't like him much either although I was not abusive back and I just left in the end. Does that mean I am a man hater for hating him? I would like to think not.

petula :) thank you. It's bought me to where I am in life today which is a good place. I'm at peace with it all now and I have to say having a dd helped. It is actually the saddest thing that ime women can't be supportive of each other. I do see at work women turning on each other and ganging up in a real pack mentality and in one scenario it was quite frightening to witness the bullying. Two were sacked as a result. I really don't know why it is a problem. I know there was some research done on women bullying women in the workplace and I have a sinking feeling that is because it is some sort of primeval response to trying to impress men, but I really don't know ow enough about it. I think that behaviour is borne out of insecurity. Where that comes from is very complex.

I know my mother hates women - her mother was abusive to her and I was sub class compared to my db. I then got that and spent my life, and to this day, watching her preen and fall over herself to accommodate men which makes me want to vomit still! So I guess a lot of these terrible attitudes are learnt at home?

Sorry, sleep deprived and rambling on. It is very interesting to discuss. I just can't accept that men as a class hate women. Of course there are hideous men but as a whole? It's about looking at equality across the board for me not just women and men as separate groups.

sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but I just had to respond to your op.

No, men do not despise women. My dh doesn't , nor does my dad or brothers, nor actually do most of the men I know.

But there are SOME men who despise women. There are also some women who treat men like children.

I don't think most men treat women as a class, they treat them as people.

'bloody women drivers'

A very commonly repeated phrase of my dad's. But I suddenly realised, the last time I heard him say it, the anger with which it was said. My mild-mannered, loyal, father of three girls and granddaughters. I realise even he and his attitudes to women counts in the phrase men (as a class) despise women. If you are unhappy with despise, then contempt will do just as well. This contempt, which obviously comes from his cultural upbringing, has become so internalised that, yes, it does become a real feeling to him.

Why doesn't this go the other way - women despising men? Because they don't. Women, as a class, laud men and male attributes. As many PP have already pointed out, we women listen harder to the male voice. We look to men for reason and leadership. The list goes on of course - in the home, on TV, in courts, at work, on the road - you can see this sort of lauding everywhere, everyday. And it's corollary, male contempt of women.

Living, what I would say about your ex is that there was something in his thinking that allowed him to see you as a target. He was nice to other people, but horrible to you, when he was supposed to love and care for you. So somewhere in his thinking he was justified in making your life miserable. What was it? Often, male abusers who emotionally abuse women have a deep-down belief that those women deserve it in some way, or that the women are somehow not real, feeling beings but just punchbags there to take the brunt of their feelings. Sometimes it's the case that he has a whore/madonna view of women so that when you sleep with him you become devalued and he then despises you because you're worthless and therefore a legitimate focus of abuse.

Just to add, what I mean is, for your ex you were not a person with feelings, you were there to please him and he was justified in "punishing" you if you didn't behave "properly." To have that attitude towards someone you must have zero respect for them. That zero respect likely extended to all women, but was focused on you because you were close to him.

Flatpacker - have you never really heard a woman say "Bloody men"? - I see it so often on Facebook, those lovely facebook memes about how men don't understand, or they're useless or whatever.

unpopularopinion - for the reality or otherwise of those prejudices, I may have to get to know the people a little closer than I'd like! Some will be real, some feigned, as you say, just to fit in. Do we all change or adapt for our group dynamic? I believe so, yes (to varying degrees). Example? I can swear a lot; I'll moderate that language for my folks (particularly my mother), and refrain totally in front of kids.
Still think the thread title "Do Men despise Women" is looking for an "absolute", to which the only answer can be "no"... "Do some men despise women?" answer, "yes".

I think a lot of men see women as 'other' and it may be easier to accept people who aren't 'like you' being treated badly.

Men don't have to actively hate or despise women as they have more control and power as a whole.

I also don't recognise Mumsnet as man-hating, it appears if you call someone out for being abusive or if you have standards for how you feel people should be treated then you are a man hater. This just emphasises to me that we can have faux-equality but we better not criticise our betters!

Plenty of women despise women too and I think that is to do with the culture, upbringing and a method of coping.

"I see it so often on Facebook, those lovely facebook memes about how men don't understand, or they're useless or whatever."

Of course it happens... complaining is the go-to setting for those without the power to change anything. Men don't openly talk about women being useless or not understanding, it's far worse than that. One particularly misogynistic man I know judges all women he deals with in entirely sexually aggressive terms. If it's a difficult woman, she is 'in need of a good shag'... you get the picture.

Sadly, I think that many men have a sort of affectionate contempt for women they don't feel threatened by, rising to actual despising if they do feel threatened.
Not ALL men, but it's there, in a very casual, everyday way, sure. I say that in relation to work and general life , not relationships, as I am single and have been for years.
The dynamic within relationships seems very different. In fact I think I know more women who actively despise their husbands than vice versa. When I worked in sales I remember being shocked by the contempt with which women spoke to their husbands. That contempt may have been well earned, I don't know, but it stopped me in my tracks I must say.
Maybe men show their contempt in a different way. I definitely think it's more woven into the fabric of society, and as such becomes almost invisible.
I certainly noticed that the minute ds started year 1, it was "ew that's for guuurrrls" the implication being that girls are lesser beings.
I keep telling him not to denigrate girls, as I am one.
The only girls an average 8 year old boy really respects are the ones who are a bit "tomboy". One of ds's classmates stands out because most of his friends are girls. He is shown contempt from other boys for this.

I think many average men think of a woman as 70% of a man.

more than half a man, but not a whole man.
when women think they are 100% as much as a man is, that's when I see trouble starting.

patriarchy for many men is some sort of benevolent (as they see it) dictatorship. just you keep picking up my pants little lady and you can go out and earn your own money. lucky you!

"Men don't openly talk about women being useless or not understanding, it's far worse than that" ... but didn't Flatpacker contradict that with the story of her Dad? Bloody Women Drivers ... they're useless?

I'm sure some men despise women, just as some women despise men.

That said, I am coming from a perspective where I don't know what it means to say "men as a class despise women" - it's not a worldview I particularly subscribe to that men as a class even exist.

"I definitely think it's more woven into the fabric of society"

I saw a piece on TV the other day where children were asked to 'run like a girl'. There were predictable stereotypical reactions from all genders.... hands flapping, feet going out at the sides, gormless expressions, squealing etc... and depressingly few of the kids just ran normally. When a simple phrase like 'like a girl' invokes such a uniform sexist response in the young, girls as well as boys then yes, it is woven into the fabric.

Of course I've heard women complaining about men. I've never heard women continually blaming men and using language in continual negative light though - I've never seen or heard women IRL constantly marrying masculinity with a whole trash of negative associations.

And as Cogito says, the language used in our society is often veiled, or seemingly funny, innocuous etc but which when unpicked can only lead to one conclusion.

I saw that item too, Cogito, very depressing.

I hear it all the time 'like a girl' being used as an insult.

I asked my 7 year old about it last week and he said "I don't understand why its meant to be a bad thing, it just means you're like a person, well, we're all people" So I have some hope for the future!

yy Cognito. That was an ad campaign for...well, I forget (!)
Did you see how when they asked the young girls (under ten I think) to run like a girl, they just ran, whereas the older girls did the flip flapping silly run?
When you think about it doing anything "like a girl" is an insult isn't it?