Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

I dont think its a gender thing. Some people despise other people.

I know several women (one in particular, a relative of mine) who clearly despise men. They have no respect for them, use them, discard them, treat them appallingly. If my relatives DH was on here describing how she treats him, and reversed the genders, you would be telling him to get to a refuge, to not allow access to their child etc. Yet she has never laid a finger on him. She hates her own brother and tried to treat him badly but he wouldnt take it and cut her off.

Then there are men who clearly despise women. I had a relationship with one. He had a classic case of madonna/whore syndrome. He hated the Madonna because she was his mother, acquiescent, selfless and a "yes" woman, but hated the whore because she wasnt all of the above, she was confident, knew her own mind and (in his eyes) demanding and high maintenance.

I do not believe that all men "as a class" despise all women "as a class".

Maybe it's like racism - hating all foreigners "except you of course Samina/Sergei/Sachin, I don't mean you" - which is an example of hating a class but not its individual members.

You can weaken the statement with "how much some men hate [women] as a class" if you like.

I agree with AF.

It is my experience that men as a class do despise women as a class.

You have only to read Twitter or the comments section on any newspaper story to see this is true.

This doesn't in any way suggest that all men despise all women, that would be ridiculous. However, when looked at as a class, it does hold true.

YY to men as a class oppressing women as a class.

I think it's not true to think of the kind of men whose partners end up in refuges as the ONLY men who hate women.

I'd also argue that a LOT of men benefit from oppressing women, and will happily turn a blind eye to sexism, or call women who mention it shrill feminist harpies. They know it benefits them (like profiting from slavery or apartheid): so in a naice, polite way, they'll deny it's existence.

• So called "nice guys" who benefit from slut shaming etc: although they will "talk the talk" they like the fact that other men are abusive, a single woman is considered eccentric or unattractive. Because that means they'll be considered catches, by women too socially scared to be on their own, so they can "rescue" her from being a weird slutty single woman by acquiring a frumpy male partner (him)

"I have a good job and won't beat you, so you must be grateful to have me." Fuck off losers.

• Or men at the workplace who benefit from an anti-female environment.

The last college course I did I was the only female in the course. Very male dominated. I got on well with all the lads but remember being so annoyed one day. We were building a network and it wasn't working. I knew what was wrong. I said over and over again. Despite the fact I got on great with all of them i was ignored. Eventually one of the lads piped up that maybe it was the problem I was saying it was. They listened straight away and problem was solved. Then they all congratulated him for solving the problem

Simple conclusion to me was had I been male they would have listened.

YY, that echoes my experience loomineer

There was another MN post, which I agree, that a lot of men are often nice, right-on, I'm not one of those Neanderthal I'm all for equality types UNTIL their male privilege is actually challenged.

So you have guys in the workplace who will be nice and chummy UNTIL they have a woman who is actually going to practically overtake them, move into professional/intellectual space they see as "theirs".

Then the ignoring starts.

Or you'll have the guy who is very much a hey, I'm a New Man I do 50% of the housework and I cook. I'm much better than most other men. subtext be grateful for what you've got or some other woman will be eager to take your place

But then on the BIG issues in the relationship, he'll expect to lead/direct the family and have his needs/preferences take priority. If a woman is raising children she didn't really want or living somewhere to X standard of living she hasn't chosen for herself, then her husband "helping" means fuck-all.

Hi Anyfucker

Sorry your comment ''but yes, men as a class despise women as a class'' is wrong in my opinion. I honestly do not know one single man who despises women and I honestly do not see how you can make such sweeping comments.

I'm with Bumbley, some (a few) of each gender may well despise the other gender.

And no, I'm not suffering from cognative dissonance.

And OP - no, men don't despise women, same way women don't despise men.

"Sorry your comment ''but yes, men as a class despise women as a class'' is wrong in my opinion. I honestly do not know one single man who despises women"

That's the point though - it's not about one single man, or the fraction of men in the world that you're acquainted with. It's men as a class

Sorry, in my experience, there are all kinds of men, just like there are all kinds of women. I'm sure a lot of women despise men, I despise some men and some women.

Loomineer I had something similar happen to me in a business course I was taking. These were supposed to be well educated and progressive types of people too. The course makeup was 75% men and 25% women, which meant that with 40 participants in each class, each group of 5-6 had mostly only one female per group.

We were working on a group assignment, and got to a certain question. I argued the question one way, and one of the men argued the question another way. Then another male stepped in and supported the first guy (with no real business rationale, other than 'I think'), so I was outnumbered. The group went with the prevailing majority and wrote the assignment with the first guy's answer.

When we got the assignment back, we were penalised for that particular question, as we had supported the wrong answer, ie the first fellow's answer was incorrect. As we were aiming for a rather high mark, it made the difference between getting a credit and a distinction for that particular assignment.

I think a lot of men genuinely do despise women and, beyond that, I think many more regard us with contempt and suspicion. We are 'other' to a lot of men and 'inferior' to another chunk of them. This is not appreciated by a lot of women because we like to think we have equality in a lot of environments and, to our faces, things can appear fine. However, even if you take the obvious things like DV and exploitation of women out of the equation, the general level of suppression and exclusion is worryingly high

To be strictly fair, I have to say that there is no monopoly on sexism. You don't have to look far on MN to find sentiments that can be summed up as 'men, eh?' But it's often done with a fond shake of the head.

No of course not.

I think with all of the shit in the world you could say a depressingly high proportion of men seem to despise women. The oppression of women in the name of religion, for example, appears to have little to do with religion and everything to do with dislike and distrust.

I think it's easy to conclude that the majority of men dislike women if you read the media, twitter comments, relationship threads.

I'm trying to do the opposite at the moment and read positive stories instead to redress the balance in my head. Doesn't help my own dad and father in law and a significant -ex were all awful with women....

I don't think I despise anyone. I'm a bit about women who shack up with blokes, have a few children, then moan because the bloke won't marry them but that's more about thinking they were daft than actually despising them.

"The oppression of women in the name of religion, for example, appears to have little to do with religion and everything to do with dislike and distrust"

This is a very important point. Even in the docile old CofE they're only just now able to stomach the idea of women in senior roles. The heritage of many societies in the world is mainstream male-dominated, male-orientated religion. These religions universally encourage and even permit men to despise women whilst at the same time - in a contradictory way - often claiming to revere 'the woman' as an abstract and wholly unrealistic concept. Centuries of that kind of indoctrination has long-lasting effects.

I was brought up among boys and was absolutely made to believe I was an inferior being.

Luckily there was a rich seam of brilliant women in the generations above, all of whom made it clear that the men around them - while being President of the Law Society, the queen's dermatologist, CEOs, captains of the prestigious golf clubs and ex-international rugby players - were a bit foolish and hopeless at the really important stuff.

The patriarchy had to be pretty powerful round there to keep some of those women oppressed, let me tell you.

No on is suggesting men don't oppress women. That happens for a lot of reasons. But are we suggesting this is because men despise women (as a class)? Not in my opinion (I really hope not anyway - or equality is in a far away dream land). For me despising represents a conscious anger and hatred. I don't think that fits most men.

AnyFucker, I think that the statement you made, that men as a class despise women as a class, sounds important but doesn't really mean anything.

To despise someone is a feeling. Feelings are individual and it doesn't make any sense to talk about a class of men experiencing a feeling. Each man either despises women in general, or despises some women, or whatever. It's possible that all men despise women, (although you didn't say that) but if that is true, then every man experiences those feelings himself, not as part of a group mind.

It would make complete sense to say that men as a class oppress women as a class, and it would be true. Every man is part of male privilege which is basically oppression of women, even if that man himself doesn't believe in it, or whatever. What you said is playing a word game to try and defend the statement someone else said, without fully agreeing with what that poster actually meant.

Christianity is a prime example of a system supporting the oppression of women. Jesus had female followers but they didn't reach the rank of 'disciple' - nonetheless, they were there, recognised and addressed by the Lord. Good so far. Then Paul decided women shouldn't speak in public (ie preach) and should defer to their husbands. The early church had many women leading and offering financial support - while persecution was rife, that was fine. When leadership had some status attached, it became men-only. Same thing happened with missionaries. While it was no-status/low status, women led, and when it became a thing, men led. Moving on through to the campaigns for women in the priesthood... well there you are. RCs still hold to 'no dick, no dog-collar'. And the glorification of celibacy generally, with the assumption that Jesus was celibate (he had a house in Capernaum. Married men had houses, not single ones), is anti-female, as it prevents women from doing what nature intended and reproducing. Then there's Eve and original sin... stop ranting, Hum, and get off the internet...

Ohandin the patriarchy as represented by its higher echelons in parts of my family, yes men despise women (but not you, special, not you).

I think men benefit from hierarchical gender roles at the expense of women. That is unquestionable. If that persists across society, and across generations, then one has to conclude that men see women as inferior. This leads to a whole range of behaviours which are not compatible with liking and respecting someone else.

That said, many of the pioneering women in the professions historically had liberal fathers who supported them financially and emotionally to break down barriers. This support was a necessary precondition in a society where women, inheritance etc were seen as belonging to men. So there were, and still are, individual men who work against the system to promote and protect the interests of women, but the system as a whole remains geared towards men. For as long as you can still answer the question, would a man be treated this way, with no, then society as a whole, where the positions of power are mostly held by men, despises women.

To the point that despise is a feeling, let me rephrase - men as a class, and in my argument, society more generally, act in a despicable way towards women.

It's things like the Mary Beard Twitter assault and the abusive punishment dealt out to the woman who suggested having a female face on bank-notes that really expose the underlying hatred amongst men. To their faces, I guarantee none of those men would have had said a thing. Many are probably 'nice' family men, 'great Dads' , holding down responsible jobs, interacting with women on a daily basis and maintaining a façade of civility. Under a cloak of anonymity, they say what they really think.

I think when half the population are objectified then that has a knock on effect as to how the other half view them. Women are perceived and presented by the media as an object to be earnt. A reward for good behaviour. "Nice Guys" are genuinely shocked when a woman doesn't want to date them.

I think when people recognise there is a problem then the effect lessens. The same goes for racism and all the other isms. When you see it for what it is you are not controlled by it as much.