Bad fight and I think I crossed the line

[chickieno1]

Had a very stupid argument with dh this evening. At the dinner table ridiculous about chicken! He got on his high horse about wanting to make his point and I said forget about it and he said he had to make his point. I then got up and took my plate with me and said if he really felt he couldn't leave it then I was going to finish my dinner elsewhere. He then said it was very ignorant of me to leave when he had cooked the dinner etc. I went to the kitchen and he was still going on and then said you can fuck off! Now I don't think we swear at each other and I saw red. I came back into the dining area and said what did you say and he said fuck off again. He was sitting at the table and I pushed him so hard both him and the chair fell over :(. The 9 month old baby was in the high chair next to him and the almost four year old was sitting on the sofa watching something before bath time. Dh got up went upstairs and either slammed a door really hard or hit a wall

We haven't spoken or looked at each other since. I feel really bad and don't know what to say or do :(

I saw red. I came back into the dining area and said what did you say and he said fuck off again. He was sitting at the table and I pushed him so hard both him and the chair fell over

The OP tried to leave the scene of the argument. Her DH prevented this by a provocative act (swearing), inducing her to return to the room.

SERIOUSLY? HE PREVENTED IT?

So let's switch gender roles and see how it reads:

I saw red. I came back into the dining area and said what did you say and she said fuck off again. I pushed her so hard both she and the chair fell over.*

So explain to me again how he prevented her from leaving the scene of the argument by swearing at her? He stayed in his chair throughout the whole thing. She'd already left the room and chose to go back in to teach him a lesson by pushing him really, really hard. . Can you honestly sit there and say with a straight face, that he induced that? By swearing?

I am genuinely bewildered by some of the responses on here.

Some posters seem determined to see this as an all-or-nothing attribution of blame. The OP pushed her husband so she must be the abuser and he must be the victim.

Well in this instance, I'd say that pretty much sums it up, yes. How else could it be construed, unless you are in the habit of defending people who have physically violent reactions to marital tiffs?

Look, I am by no means calling for her to be arrested and charges and strung up, or for her kids to be carted off by Social Services, but seriously, you have GOT to stop excusing and minimising her behaviour based on the fact that:

a) she is a woman

b) you want to mark him down as a generally abusive goody fucker. You know no such thing. And as I said before, it is still not a defence, especially given that she has ample opportunity to walk away from the confrontation and chose to go back to it.

ffs this is not dv. she didn't mean to push him over it was an accident. she got a bit physical but it sounds like he was being a dick.

You take that attitude one too many times in your marriage and one day he he might 'accidentally' punch you back. I sincerely hope you won't be asking why, and feeling sorry for yourself over it?

goady, not goody. I do wish my bloody autocorrect would mind its own business.

Look it's fine to think someone is really wide of the mark but it's not on to be calling people crazy for suggesting wht would be a normal course of action and has been advised many times on MN if the genders were reversed. Calling people crazy is low.

Totally agree with all you have said fell

So explain to me again how he prevented her from leaving the scene of the argument by swearing at her? He stayed in his chair throughout the whole thing.

It is very, very simplistic to think that unless her DH physically stood in the doorway, the OP was free to escape from the argument. She tried to disengage from the argument by leaving the room, he tried to prevent her disengaging by being verbally provocative.

As I have said repeatedly, his actions in no way excuse her response. But his actions didn't suddenly not happen just because her response was unreasonable.

you have GOT to stop excusing and minimising her behaviour

Actually, I think it is you who is minimising her DH's behaviour. As I said above, if the sequence of events had stopped with him swearing, and the push had never happened, would you consider that her DH had behaved reasonably up until that point?

Both parties were at fault. You can't have it both ways. If his actions didn't justify her response, neither did her response suddenly make his actions justified.

Here's my take. Do you want the relationship to continue? Then talk. Don't leave.
The "LTB" crowd are out in force, but sometimes, accepting that bad things occasionally happen in a relationship is better than running for the door.

I dont want to minimise family violence. But I think calling any shove or outburst abusive is not helpful.

Family violence is deadly. I have worked with women whose partners check the odometer in the evening, to make sure they have not left the house. I have worked with women who have their wages directed into partners account and hide £5 notes in washing powder boxes. I have worked with women who have not spoken to anyone other than their partner for years, who have been 'bannes' from using a phone, who attend immunisation appointments for their babies with black eyes and partner in tow.

Family violence is serious. This is not family violence. It is juvenile and silly.

imho.

Honestly, I'm starting to remember exactly why I de-regged from this place for six months now.

There is another thread running at the moment where a woman is in a disastrous, turbulent, totally dysfunctional relationship with a horribly angry and abusive man. Yet by her own admission (almost) she is a 'strong character' who frequently gets very drunk and does things she knows will make him angry, and when they get into horrendous drunken fights she refuses to back down when warned, and ends up being threatened or pushed, or flung out into the street in her underwear. Over and over and over again. And the following weekend she's back again for more.

The thing is, her boyfriend is convinced that she is the verbally and emotionally abusive one, she is the goady fucker, she is the sloppy drunk who starts arguments and winds him up on purpose, and she is the one who could back down when warned, but doesn't.

So in his mind she is the emotional abuser and he is the victim, pushed to his limits and occasionally justified in shoving her into walls and holding broken glasses to her throat. Because she could walk away but she just keeps on arguing, keeps on pushing. Refuses to STFU when told.

This is not once, this is week in week out, by the bloody sound of it. And yet she is told over and over by MN that IT DOES NOT MATTER how obnoxious she might be, she is the victim, he is the abuser and he has no defence. None. At. All.

Which of course he doesn't. Unless you are acting in self defence there is never a defence. But I suppose MrBuster that you might like to go onto that thread and tell her that she has been 'preventing' her boyfriend from disengaging from the arguments, and she's been 'inducing' his violence by refusing to shut up when told.

Good luck with that.

The OP is completely in the wrong. She says herself she didn't think they swore at each other in their relationship so it hardly sounds like a reaction to a verbally abusive relationship.

I can understand that a woman victim in this situation may now feel unsafe and want to leave or get him to. There is generally an imbalance of physical power between men/women. If OPs husband hadn't been caught off guard by this unusual behaviour of OP he prob could have defended himself easily. As such it may be something he found embarrassing, emasculating and quite confusing. Though I doubt he is scared of her at this point.

Personally I would have apologised straight away and offered to sleep elsewhere, even if just in another room. I would not say you wound me up, I just saw red etc. just apologise unconditionally.

He has every right to tell you the relationship is over, to inform the police of the incident (even if nothing further happens) and you'd have to accept it. I'm a bit of a funny bugger on MN and I don't think one episode should necessarily be the be all and end all, (severity dependant). I would think that the shock of your actions, genuine work to make sure you don't allow yourself to get into that rage again and lots of communication can see you through.

One more episode and it's not a one off, it's a pattern forming and I would agree you need to split. I would say the same to a man or woman. If DP pushed me out of chsracter, in a normally happy relationship, I wouldn't leave. If sometime after he did again, I would. Prob not the best advice in the world but I think everyone has a moment they go too far whether it's physical/verbal abuse/cheating etc.

My DP was the victim of DV in his previous relationship. She used to punch him in the head. He told me he just put up with it as it didn't hurt that bad. His self esteem was shattered though. He didn't want to leave as they had a baby daughter. Eventually he realised he didn't want his DD growing up seeing it. She's the primary carer and kept DD. He has to fight in court for contact.

The OP tried to leave the scene of the argument. Her DH prevented this by a provocative act (swearing), inducing her to return to the room.

He was asking for it, shooting his mouth off.
Used to have a dodgy ex who thought that.
Also pushing/grabbing wasn't DV because it didn't injure me badly.

I agree with everything you've said fifi

I think that's a MN first fell , I'm normally universally disagreed with! :)

FellReturneth, if I went on the thread you mentioned and read the situation you describe, I would say exactly what I have said here - that if both people in a relationship are behaving badly, then both people need to learn to behave better.

He was asking for it, shooting his mouth off.

I did not say that he was asking for it. I said that his actions were also unreasonable. There is a difference.

germinal How do you think it starts? And do you think it always 'shows' - I also work with families, some of whom have abusive behaviour.

There are those who seem to be lovely naice middle class families on the outside but are abused: no black eyes or slanging in the street.
There are those who are not physically seriously harmed but the kids know dad (or mum) can get angry and shove or grab or push. The family is cowed without risk to life. The parent is not a calculating stereotypical wife beater. But it is abuse and it does happen. You don't WAIT till it gets to broken bones to raise a concern FFS.

Anyone at my work stating pushing, slapping etc' was "not" really DV because real DV has to be severe would be reported to the child/spouse protection officer and appropriate safeguarding training given.
Because the idea that 2 black eyes and being cowed in a corner (severe DV) "is" DV and other things aren't (yet) is concerning from someone who works in a safeguarding role.

Even in the eyes of the law you have:
-common assault: pushing/hurting a person even if it leaves no mark
-ABH: temporary injury sustained
-GBH: severe or long term injury sustained
...just because GBH exists, it doesn't mean common assault doesn't! (NOT saying the OP should be arrested, just giving an example).

Honestly ...read that PP about the police who came when the wife was pushed and did NOTHING. Should she suffer and wait until she has a few cuts and bruises.

As such it may be something he found embarrassing, emasculating and quite confusing. Though I doubt he is scared of her at this point.

As someone who has worked with teenage boys who are victims of DV, although their mum is smaller than them it IS still DV. They are highly aware that a man mustn't hit a woman, and thus they are not physically scared - but can feel utterly trapped and depressed by the violence.
The psychological side can be awful.

DV is DV.

Are people really suggesting the op leave the house, isolate herself from her children and accept her marriage has ended because she pushed her partner off a chair?

I agree with Fifi too.

The facts about domestic violence are sadly so scary as to, in my view, condition us to think that we must immediately leave a relationship if somebody says or does something verbally or physically violent. Undoubtedly, the problem that the OP describes is widespread but men, thankfully, are conditioned not to view such events as assault and the OPs partner will probably therefore be more than willing to talk things through. After all, he didn't jump up and punch her when he fell.

As others said, this was an "event". Given the guilt the OP feels it was probably not something that will happen again and the suggestions that the partner is somehow at fault are hypocritical in the extreme.

As for the kids, i doubt they'll remember this event in a year's time. Provided they are not exposed to recurrences, their interests are best served by their parents staying together and working through their differences.

I have to say that i have worked with real and imagined victims of domestic violence many times. Sometimes, the violence is horrific and real. Other times, i run counselling sessions where it is clear that actually the relationship is so bad that there is mutual bickering. What i have found astonishing is that in those cases, the female sees the male as abusive and discounts her own behaviour. I could recount one case history where the woman concerned was so frustrated with the man that she'd kick him in his sleep while they lay in bed together. Each time, she claimed it was an accident. The referral had come because somebody had raised concerns about the kids about a loud verbal argument. Social Services had been involved and the view of the social worker was that the man was verbally aggressive. Believe me, i saw an entirely different picture as a counsellor.

Ahh I see husband still deserved the push, or should not feel scared of a woman.

So we can all now go home and push our partners of chairs when they annoy us :) and then we can laugh at hem when they complain. Great works that we live in.

^I'm a bit of a funny bugger on MN and I don't think one episode should necessarily be the be all and end all, (severity dependant). I would think that the shock of your actions, genuine work to make sure you don't allow yourself to get into that rage again and lots of communication can see you through.

One more episode and it's not a one off, it's a pattern forming and I would agree you need to split. I would say the same to a man or woman. If DP pushed me out of chsracter, in a normally happy relationship, I wouldn't leave. If sometime after he did again, I would.^

I agree with this.

Some of the posts on here are a massive overreaction to ONE push where it is pretty clear this has never happened before and the OP feels dreadful about it.

OP, if you're still reading, hope you've apologised and you and your DH are talking again.

I am although sadly not surprised that there seem to be some on here who are suggesting that because the man swore at the op first, he somehow provoked the situation and is therefore as much to blame for what happened. Imagine if the situation read like this:

“we were sitting at the table and an argument started between me and dp about chicken of all things. Dp got up from the table and walked into the kitchen to get away from the argument, but I continued it by shouting into the kitchen after him. He came back in and I kept on, he said something and I told him to fuck off. He asked me to repeat what I’d said so I said it again. At that point he came over and pushed me so hard that I fell off my chair on to the floor. My baby was sitting in his high chair. I’m upstairs now and am scared of what will happen next. He’s never done this before.”

How many people would go on to that thread and say “you swore at him first, so you provoked the situation? How many people would go on to that thread and say “this is just the beginning, next time it could be a punch, or two, and then kicks, and then a beating, how long are you going to stay? Until you’re dead? Leave now and get your children away to somewhere safe.” I can guarantee that the majority responses wouldn’t include telling the op she was to blame because she swore first. In fact anyone suggesting that would be given short shrift. Incidentally, what might the op have said to provoke the dp into swearing at her in the first place?

There are IMO situations where what could be perceived as a violent response can be explained, e.g. if a couple were having an argument and one party got up into the other’s face and started shouting screaming/swaring the other party may push them out of the way in response. It could be a reaction to having one’s personal space invaded at the time you feel on edge because of the argument in the first place. Swaring is asnap reaction because you’re verbally lashing out. Both need to be addressed and discussed and agreed to not happen again but I wouldn’t consider those leaving offenses. But where a line is crossed for me is where the reaction is to deliberately change your position in order to inflict that provoked response. It’s not a split second reaction to walk over to the table and push someone off a chair. The op had just come in from the kitchen. She deliberately walked over to her dp, having provoked him into swearing at her again so she had time to build up her response, and then pushed him so hard he fell off the chair in front of their children. “fuck off” does not equal that, it doesn’t even come close.

In terms of the dp, there is no incorrect response to this situation. If he decided this was a one off and wanted to work on their marriage then that should be up to him. But if he decided that one episode of violence was one too many, that the marriage was over and that as a result he would be filing for divorce and residency of the children that wouldn’t be wrong either. If a female poster said that she was going to do that and would be taking the children even though the dp was a SAHD she would receive whole-hearted support on here for doing so. In fact if the dp was a SAHD people would suggest that the op should put her children first and ensure their safety by keeping them with her.

squiz I am glad you brought that up, because I m not happy with the over-simplistic assumption that the man will automatically hold the balance of power and have the ability to instil fear into the woman simply by dint of being bigger than her. Not only are all couples not necessarily made in the image of Kylie Minogue and Arnold Schwartzeneggar, but physical size is something of a red herring. A tendency towards violence, aggression and intimidation is a character flaw not a by-product of large physical mass.

To say that it doesn't matter so much if a (smaller) woman is aggressive towards a (bigger) man and that he needn't feel intimidated is like telling the huge but timid and gentle ten year old that can't possibly be being systematically bullied by a small, skinny, thoroughly nasty child, and that he's making a fuss over nothing. Especially if that child is a girl, who banks on not being hit back by a boy.

I'm not saying this is the case with the OP at all. But it is an oft spouted one-size-fits-all theory that irritates me, nonetheless.

OP, part of me hopes you are still reading, but mostly I hope you are not and have sourced advice from those who understand the complex issues of what you have described. Unfortunately, we still live in a world where women declare men as victims, and women as abusive. Given your circumstances, and subsequent responses, this is the worst place you could have come to ask for advice.

For everyone trying to get others to understand the nature of gendered violence, you Know that your postings are pointless. Just two days ago, I ran a training for health professionals around responding to family violence. At least 40 minutes was taken up discussing what services are available to men?

For the ignorant, yes you, who were raised to believe that men are victims and need a woman's voice to further their cause, good luck. It is unlikely you will find yourself in the same position as the OP, because you Will always be to blame.

gettingmeback I found your post really interesting. Can you tell us a bit more? I have always instinctively felt that there are different nuances between the genders when it comes to DV but find it difficult to articulate what I mean without risking sounding like I think it's ok to be violent towards your DH not to mention getting screamed down on here if you don't toe the party line. Even if you could recommend somewhere I could find out more? Many thanks.