Bad fight and I think I crossed the line

[chickieno1]

Had a very stupid argument with dh this evening. At the dinner table ridiculous about chicken! He got on his high horse about wanting to make his point and I said forget about it and he said he had to make his point. I then got up and took my plate with me and said if he really felt he couldn't leave it then I was going to finish my dinner elsewhere. He then said it was very ignorant of me to leave when he had cooked the dinner etc. I went to the kitchen and he was still going on and then said you can fuck off! Now I don't think we swear at each other and I saw red. I came back into the dining area and said what did you say and he said fuck off again. He was sitting at the table and I pushed him so hard both him and the chair fell over :(. The 9 month old baby was in the high chair next to him and the almost four year old was sitting on the sofa watching something before bath time. Dh got up went upstairs and either slammed a door really hard or hit a wall

We haven't spoken or looked at each other since. I feel really bad and don't know what to say or do :(

I don't think the two things could be compared, Muse.
Most of us have probably done physical acts on partners, even friends, that are not necessarily aggressive. A kick under the table to shut someone, a tap if someone says something they shouldn't.

Pushing someone to the ground is not minor. I've been there and when you are on the floor it's shocking, and you feel vulnerable. It certainly feels like an act of aggression.
It's not so easy to push someone to the point of falling, particularly when they are sitting. Unless it was a particularly freak event, it probably required quite a lot of strength and anger to make the man fall in this case. For all we know they can be similarly built. I certainly would never have had the strength to make exH fall as he was massive compared to me. If they have similar heights and weights, it means that the OP could present a danger to her OH, yes. And once someone is down, it's a vulnerable position, as well as dangerous.

That the husband was sitting down and not presenting a physical threat and the OP was standing up, in a position of physical dominance is also bad news.

Do not underestimate women in a fight. I have experience of it and we tend to be faster, even if a man can usually deliver stronger blows. Good men have been raised never to hit a woman and will probably not even defend themselves. A woman in anger can be a danger to a man, particularly if they are not that different in size.

I'd like to offer my own experience of being accused of domestic violence, in the UK.

During my own divorce proceedings, my H decided to take it upon himself to cast himself as the victim. He stood to gain a lot from this, because he was trying to get me removed from the marital home, which would have removed my primary carer status - which as it stood meant that I would be awarded the lion's share of marital assets. I was the SAHM and he had been the (very high) breadwinner. Despite having never seen fit to say he was frightened or call the police in the previous 10 years of our relationship, as soon as we separated he felt "so frightened" that he called the police several times every time we argued. One time he claimed that I had physically assaulted him, outside of the marital home. He called the police 10 hours after we had seen each other. They turned up to our house, whilst I was asleep, ostensibly to arrest me and take me to spend the night in the cells before being interviewed in the morning. They quickly saw that the situation was not as they had been led to believe and did not arrest me or take me to the cells. They asked me to come down to the station at some point over the weekend to give a statement, which I gladly agreed to.

Redglitter, I think it is very dangerous that you are giving your experience as though it is the status quo. It is not. I have been involved in several incidents with the police now, most of which I have been accused of being the perpetrator. In my case, the accusations were spurious. There is no such thing as 'black and white' in DV cases. The most I would say from my own experience is that there is a big drive to separate warring couples from each other at the precise point of explosion. At any hint of domestic upset, they will remove one party from the home. Not necessarily the accused perpetrator, but the person most able to leave.

Lweji, I appreciate all that. And I am so sorry to hear that you have "been there". It must have been awful and frightening. Please don't think I am trying to minimise aggression that results in actual pain or intimidation, I'm really not. I think however that its not helpful to categorise absolutely any physical act done in anger, however tiny, and regardless of whether the "victim" is hurt or frightened as DV, as some poster has done. To my mind that rather trivialises true abuse.

And I don't think I'm saying that what the OP did could not be DV, though to my mind at least, its borderline and depends on the circumstances

On your first point (we've all kicked someone under the table to shut them up etc) but such acts are not generally done with any malicious intent. However I was definitely feeling very aggressive when I kicked my DH, so I did have that intent.

If you push a stranger so hard they fell of a chair it would be classed as assault. It doesn't make it better, or more understandable, if you assault someone you know in the privacy of your own home, it makes it worse.

You can split hairs all you like about how much violence constitutes domestic violence -the OP assaulted her partner in front of their children. She did not have the right to do that no matter how annoying she found him.

AnonyMuse

What you did (whether your DP reported it or not) was assault.

You are justifying your assault by saying that his infidelity, talking it through (at your request) and you being smaller justified/forced you in to it.

My ex was smaller than me, yet assaulted me on a regular basis, At school smaller children get away with attacking larger/bigger children because they are smaller and it "can't hurt as much" or "they must have been intimidated/goaded in to it".

You and anyone else who uses these excuses are responsible for victims of violence not reporting.

Pink has spoken the most words of wisdom here. I'm not in anyway condoning or defending what op has done but if my partner told me to fuck off in front of our children I wouldn't forgive him. That is also abuse - verbal and emotional imo. Both of them have behaved very very badly and have shown their kids that neither of them has any respect for the other.

I hit my xp when I discovered he'd been trying it on with a friend. while I was processing it, I had times where I briefly felt suicidal (was very young and not entirely mentally stable to begin with) and one morning, my sadness and fury got the better of me and I lashed out, unprovoked. He immediately threatened to hurt me back (and had been physically abusive to me anyway) so I'm afraid I can't feel too guilty but in his situation, I would have left and I wish he fucking had.

Muse this is aimed at you really and my point is, I think experiencing that sort of betrayal makes many people behave in ways that even they themselves find shocking and I don't think what you did makes you a violent husband batterer, tbh.

I can't believe this thread,

some of you honestly are saying it's ok to hit/kick/push other people when your really angry with them

That it's justified, if you have lost control/see red/are emotionally wound up.

You can't go round in life attacking people, full stop. No excuses.

who said it's okay? I've not seen one single comment saying OP, or anyone else who's guilty of it, did the right thing.

It seems like some here are so eager to point out how male DV is treated less seriously that they are actually losing all perspective of this situation.

Yes, men who are abused are often treated much more poorly than women; it is not taken seriously enough. I think we can all agree on this.

However; some are losing all sense of perspective and turning this thread into some kind of soap box for male domestic violence and forgetting to offer the OP any practical advice.

I gather this couple are normally low drama and this is the first time OP has crossed the line. If so, telling her to hand herself in and not be around her children who she is possibly the main carer for is just very dramatic.

Yes, OP assaulted her husband and there is no downplaying that. What happens now is the important thing. If her husband wants to report it than that is his right to do so obviously, but if he is willing to talk it through, move on and the OP is willing to evaluate what lead her to this and what she can do in the future to prevent it happening again then surely that would be the best outcome for all of the family?

If the OP lost control when she never has done before a trip to the GP to talk it through will be a great idea. She might be suffering with PND, she might not be. Either way if this is a one off I see no reason for OP to leave and have supervised visits unless that is the route her husband wants to take.

There is no excuse for pushing him but lets not suggest the OP rips her family apart when her husband might actually want to work through this. The choice now is really his.

There is a person here and a family. We should be trying to help her through this with causing the least minimal damage possible? Or would people really want to see the OP in a cell with supervised visits to her children for a one off push she did after she was told to fuck off? that is quite the dramatic reaction when the OP could come out of this with her family intact and never to touch her husband aggressively again.

And just to be clear!

It is NOT ok to hurt anyone. There is NO excuse for it.

The thing that matters right now is where they go from here and if their marriage can repair from a one off push like this then that has to be better.

No one is saying it is ok. Some just think that some of the reactions are a bit OTT and it is much better to advise the OP then try to get her to get herself locked up.

I doubt any authority would suggest supervised visits, I truly believe that is just MN at its most hysterical, I'm afraid.

gettingmeback I obviously agree. The Scottish taskforce, someone mentioned earlier to vindicate red view that op could be thrown in jail, was established to handle serious and serial domestic violence offenders.

I would readily agree that violence within the home is not taken anywhere near seriously enough. But conflating serious and ongoing man on woman violence with a woman who shoves her dude off a chair in an isolated incident is unhelpful to the point of offensive.

Also agree that a one off loss of temper does not in any way warrant the level of reproof here, be it man or woman. I should think that by now the OP and her husband have talked it through and are well over it. The responses on here are so far removed from reality. Thank god my partner has not judged me so harshly on the odd occasion when I have lost my rag and given him a shove. My children are teens and are happy and well balanced. My relationship is normal, occasional rows, bickering, but a deeper sense of friendship and love. Some of the responses on here seem mad to me. This is not an abusive relationship. Get a grip.

Me and dp have had some humdinger rows - we've both said nasty things that we've been very sorry for but neither of us have assaulted the other, ever.

It's a line crossed and I wouldn't be able to get past it whether I was the assaulter or the assaulted.

Interestingly though, dp was regularly physically assaulted by his ex. I worked with him and knew him long before we were together and remember him coming in with bruises and his male colleagues treating it as a joke 'haha, you been pissing the missus off again MrBob?' Etc.

If it ever comes up in conversation now he brushes it off saying 'she was only little so couldn't do much damage'

It horrifies me, especially since dp is the most laid back man on the planet who would never hit back.

Violence should never be minimised.

Thank god my partner has not judged me so harshly on the odd occasion when I have lost my rag and given him a shove.
Have you ever made him fall?
Has he ever push you on a chair so that you fell to the ground?

In any case, you should check yourself and ask why you are shoving him and what it achieves. Yes, you can probably be thankful. Mainly because it hasn't escalated yet and he hasn't shoved you back. Think about it next time you lose your rag.

U2TheEdge
"It seems like some here are so eager to point out how male DV is treated less seriously that they are actually losing all perspective of this situation."

This has only come about because some posters are minimising what the OP has done, If the responses had been "you have assaulted him get yourself sorted" then it would be ok but there have been posters who throughout the thread have used excuses to minimise what the OP has done.

Birdmomma, I'm sure my ex used to think the same as you, until one day I had had enough of his shoving and called the police to have him forcibly removed from the property.

Now I have a relationship where well keep our hands to ourselves, and everyone is happy and safe.

until one day I had had enough of his shoving

this wasn't an isolated incident as it was in OP's case though. based on what she has told us, this was way out of character for her and could even indicate underlying issues either with the relationship or her current state of mind. who knows?

This is madness, some of you still think it's not a big issue to push and shove your spouses, because your having an argument. What are you going to do that one day when he turns round and smacks you in the face or pushes you to the floor because he has had enough of being shoved around. What then are you gonna do? cry violence from the rooftops??

My DP has a fowl temper when really stressed and if he has had a tough couple of weeks away playing soldier, I've been called a fucking cunt under his breath in a tiff, I didn't shove him to the floor! I tell him to go to the gym and run it off, I leave him to it, I don't rise to it, I activly diffuse the situation as a rational adult should.

If you've got a man who has been in a high stress situation for weeks, they need to decompress. I think if I assaulted him in this mind set it would lead to volatile dangerous situations.

But for those of you who see no problem with shoving and pushing grown men around, don't cry violence when they shove back. It becomes tit for tat in those situations.

Mine and DP's rule is touch me lovingly, or don't touch me at all. It works both ways.

Boudica1990, "dont cry violence when they shove back" and "If you assault a man in high stress situations it can lead to dangerous and volatile situations" and "I've been called a fucking cunt under my breath and I tell him to go to the gym and run it off".

I just feel so sad reading your post.

boudica I think you handle it well myself. You can't say it's just a shove when you do it to a man but the reverse is then assault. If you begin a physical altercation it does increase the likeliness that you'll get something back. Rest assured only on MN do people never call their partner a name in frustration! Working it off in the gym sounds like a two fold win to me!

I don't feel sad reading your post at all :)