Week from hell. I think DH has lost the plot.

[Fideliney]

He seems to be saying today that he would rather divorce than curb his hoard, but he's flip-flopping a lot.

Any hoarding widows about who can help me decode this escalating mess?

The background is a shit year of ill health and various stresses. The hoarding has been spiralling. Exhausted and at a bit of a loss

DH is almost too keen to fall on his sword in the event of a split and martyr himself in a campervan

It sounds like he uses that catastrophic scenario as a way of shutting down any attempt on your part to have a conversation about the problem and he can't be allowed to do that. There is a middle ground but he's refusing to acknowledge it. The only two scenarios he is acknowledging are (1) him being allowed to carry on acquiring and stashing with no limits; and (2) him having to martyr himself completely.
He knows (or believes) that you would be reluctant to force (2) on him and therefore concludes that (1) must be allowed to happen.
What he's discounting is (3): he takes action and gets help to change his way of thinking and behaving such that neither 1 nor 2 is necessary.

If he's really bad at the moment then the idea of changing the way he thinks will probably be anathema to him. The concept of reaching a point where he can happily chuck boxes of his stuff into a skip without a backward glance will be absurd - impossible. I think you'll have to insist that he tries to engage with some kind of therapeutic process, because the unfettered hoarding cannot happen any more and the campervan scenario is unnecessary.

By the way - your mention of the magazines just made me realise something: I've "collected" three different publications at different times of my life that I can think of off the top of my head. I occasionally look back and congratulate myself on having got rid of so many magazines and remind myself that there have been no lasting ill effects, and think "Gosh how absurd! Why did I hold onto them for so long?!" Then I visualise my front room and the piles and piles and piles of neatly-stacked interiors magazines...

The more I think about it the more I think that hoarding is a lot like alcoholism. I think a lot of hoarders want "help" with their hoarding but when you get down to details what they're actually asking for is help to make their hoarding more manageable, in the same way that alcoholics often cast about looking for ways to "manage" their drinking. In both cases it's a delusion: there's no "healthy" level of drinking for an alcoholic and there's no "healthy" level of compulsive hoarding, either. They just have to stop.
"I'll hire storage space"/ "I'll vacuum pack the clothes, they'll hardly take up any space"/ "I'll board out the floor in the loft and fit shelving, you'll never know it's all there" are just hoarding equivalents of "I'll stop drinking spirits and just stick to beer" or "I'll only drink on Fridays and Saturdays" or "I'll only drink in the pub."

No. It's all just dancing around. You have to stop, completely. He has got to stop.

If you have sky I would really recommend a series of programmes called hoarding: buried alive. I think they're on TLC. There is quite a lot of psychological examination in them. But I don't think you should show them to him with any expectation of a great revelation and a complete change on his part. The compulsions that drive the hoarding, and the overwhelming anxiety that he will feel when he tries to get rid of stuff, will be much stronger than any desire to get rid. I don't think the trip to the skip with his mother's prize magazines rings true at all. If so he's very unusual as a typical hoarder would just not be able to do it.

I recommend the TV programmes mainly for your own sake, so you can gain some insight into how and why these things happen and what can be done about it.

If he does by some miracle actually want to get rid, it will take weeks if not months for it to actually happen, as it's a painstaking process and actually very difficult for the individual.

I am still ashamed to admit I grew up with hoarding parents. But I did, and it was utter hell.
OP, please empty the house when he is away, put everything in storage, give him the key to the storage and change the house locks. I wouldn't hesitate to do this in your shoes. This is no way to live.

No I don't think I agree that it is like alcoholism, not really - except that it is probably just as difficult to accept that you are a hoarder and need to stop!
I think it's more of a safeguarding thing, as someone up thread has said, and can be triggered by a traumatic loss of something. My Mum was something of a hoarder (not terrible, not like those mentioned on here) because when she was 7, her mother disposed of all her toys bar 3 teddies. Because of this, Mum never got rid of any of our toys, unless they were actually beyond repair.

Dad is the same - because his collection of comics were disposed of by his mother (things like the Dandy from day 1! it would have been a very valuable collection). Dad still collects - stamps and coins - all of which have an inherent value but he won't dispose of them because they're "his collection". It will be down to us to dispose of them when he's gone (not any time soon, I hope!) but of course he'd rather we didn't. We will - none of us "collect" - but it will be easier for us because we don't have the sentimental attachment to them.

I also agree that some of it may come from the "make do and mend" attitudes post-war - both my parents were alive during WW2, although Mum was only born in the latter years, but they both grew up with rationing - so keeping random bits of stuff that might come in handy was a standard thing. I still do it - but not to the point of having boxes of it all over the place.

I've heard some people say "if you haven't used it in a year, you're not going to so get rid of it" and I always scoff at that because I have many things that I won't necessarily use year to year, but when I do need them, I don't want to have to go and buy them again! Fish kettle is one; mitre saw another.

I had a collection of egg boxes in my cupboard, for craft purposes, at home or at playgroup. Someone wanted some eggboxes for actual eggs (she has her own chickens and too many eggs) so I said I had some she could have - only I didn't! They'd been cleared out.

OK - that's my self-justification over. If my "hoarding"had the same impact on my family as Fideliney's DH's does on hers, or anything like as bad, I would hopefully do something about it. But it doesn't. (Honestly!) I actively dislike minimalism and show house styling - it looks so unhomely.

he's setting up their disposal as his one off grand gesture which will now and forever after be brought into play whenever he's criticized or you attempt to 'guide him'

Yes, this.

I recommend the TV programmes mainly for your own sake, so you can gain some insight into how and why these things happen and what can be done about it.

I'm tempted to put everything I can on series link. Bit passive aggressive - I must still be seething. I think actually I did channel hop onto a programme that could have been that about a year ago. I will check sky. Youtube is getting irritating.

If he's really bad at the moment then the idea of changing the way he thinks will probably be anathema to him. The concept of reaching a point where he can happily chuck boxes of his stuff into a skip without a backward glance will be absurd - impossible. I think you'll have to insist that he tries to engage with some kind of therapeutic process, because the unfettered hoarding cannot happen any more and the campervan scenario is unnecessary.

Maybe this will happen. I am not going to chase him around nagging him though. I will wait and see if he offers any new thoughts.

I am going to take a few days to process it all anyway and decide what DC need, what timeframes we can afford etc.

The timings couldn't be worse. I wish he had kept his flat.

So all those boxes just ended up in the filing cabinet then and found a spare corner to live in?

You cannot live with this man, he has a serious problem.

Thanks to this thread I have found out that we have a hoarding problem too. Do you get codependent hoarders?

We constantly blame each other for the other persons mess and I will try and deal with it but then he moves it around and then it ends up usually placed in a pile in front of the cupboards or useful shelves.

I used to think that was part of an abusive obstruction pattern of behaviour. I try to sort, inefficiently though, he decides to have a tidy up and shifts it all around so I can't find anything. But now I think I am as much part of the problem as he is.

My kitchen is a tight ship, until he cooks or empties the dishwasher, but it's not immediate, just a few things that are misplaced each time.

Sorry if I'm projecting here, I thought of this when you said there was a filing cabinet that you never got to use because you couldn't get to it.

Can hoarding be used as a way to try to control someone else?

I don't see that that would make any difference, Fideliney. Any hoarder that actually watched that type of programme (and many would just block out or immediately go and do something else) would be looking at the differences in their behaviour and not the similarities. There would be no attempt to learn but only a justification of their own collecting. ('I'm organized and he's not', 'He collects rubbish and I collect things which are valuable', 'He has rats and we don't', 'I don't collect food and he does'.......and so on, and so on.)

Sorry.

.....Do you get codependent hoarders?......

Yes, you do - in fact you get a veritable rainbow of issues.

There is a difference between hanging on to some things for some years for some eventual purpose, or where it makes sense to do so, and actual extreme hoarding which becomes a horrible prison for the individual and anyone else living in the home. It absolutely is like alcoholism in that it's driven by compulsion and cannot be stopped without mammoth effort. It also can't be fixed by anyone other than the individual, as they have to want to do it, and I mean properly want to where they will work through the anxiety at point of action, rather than just vaguely wanting to tackle it but only ever talking about it and then avoiding actually getting down to it.

Being a bit of a collector or interested in knick knacks is not the same thing as hoarding, and a hoard is not the same as having a few bits and bobs in the garage that really should have been cleared out by now.

I have things I've kept for years that I've not yet got round to using, but they're tidied away in my craft cupboard. And I do have a clear out of stuff when it's starting to get silly. Most people have a set point at which they start to think, must make some room/make a charity shop trip/give some things away/ebay that handbag, etc. that doesn't happen for a hoarder.

Hoarding is different because the person cannot bear to get rid of anything. Every single item becomes part of the person's security blanket and trying to get rid is extremely distressing.

Oh that was in reply to thumbwitch's comment.

Yes - it is a security blanket. People go away and/or let you down: stuff doesn't.

So all those boxes just ended up in the filing cabinet then and found a spare corner to live in?

Well more or less, Alphabetical order and sorted. My bloody filing cabinet but it was some kind of effort. Guessing about 6 of about 30 boxes left squirreled about. He is nervous and worried and trying to do something to make me happy. All a bit random. I feel like his mum

Codependent hoarders doesn't sound fun. It is such a waste of life all this angst and acrimony around chattels and junk.

Bless him. I feel a lot of sympathy for him.

That doesn't take away from my sympathy for you and your children, though.

You can see how muddled it can become, though, can't you. Everything all tangled up and everyone playing their part in the game of enabling/managing/railing against it/being defeated by it. For years and years and years.

It sounds as if he's a good man. I hope he can somehow dig deep and get rid.

No I see that cozie. I was wondering if I could put anything under his nose that would give him psychological insights but I accept it will be unlikely to work.

I just can't believe that I didn;t really grasp the depth of the problem until this month

I won't give it years Holger. No way. My anger scared me on Weds.

I think the problem is that once a compulsion and associated behaviours has become entrenched like this, even if the person does have some insight and a vague desire to stop it, it's so very difficult to work through the anxiety at point of action that they will do almost anything to avoid it.

.....I feel like his mum.....

Yes - it will likely destroy any good relationship you have. You can't be partners when someone has such a severe problem. You may love things about them but you can lose respect for them because the problem becomes so overwhelming that it eclipses their good points.

Obligation and sentiment are not a good basis for continuing to live together although you may want to continue a relationship of sorts/to support the person from a distance.

You have been ill though. You couldn't focus on this because you had more pressing concerns.

And he has probably been trying to manage his stress and worry over your illness by doing what he always does, hanging on to more and more stuff.

Yes cozie someone said wayback yesterday about not living together. It's a shame we can't arrange a pair of semi-detacheds quickly. I feel so nostalgic for the days of just me and DC.

It is certainly entrenched Holger

He is nervous and worried and trying to do something to make me happy

I don't think he is trying to make you happy. If he was he would take your feelings seriously, listen to you, agree a plan and follow it through. But he hasn't done any of that, he just threatens you.

As it is, what you want is very much less important to him than what he wants. He may have an illness but that does not excuse him treating you so disrespectfully.

I think he just wants you to stfu about it and he hopes that moving a few boxes around will achieve that.

He has already told you that his stuff is way, way more important than you. I'm not sure why you even want to live with someone who can demonstrate by words and actions how little they care about you and your needs.

Well there's a thought for you. You're ill, you have vulnerable DCs and you're worried about your DH's ability to come through this. (I wouldn't believe that he actually could come through it but that's just me.) Maybe you need some perspective and thinking time so that separation would be the best thing for both you and the DCs? Maybe even him. It would surely clarify the position.

Holger - I may have underplayed my parents' home - they have a garage that is the length of 2.5 cars, that can't be got into because of all the Stuff that is in there (including one very old and very defunct car!) Dad has also kept all the furniture he could from his own parents' home, and from his great aunt's home, and from anyone else's home for whom he was the sole executor. They don't have much in the way of intrinsic value, only sentimental. He's not in any way as bad as the Fideliney's DH - but he's not just "got a few things" either. (Mum is dead now so he can get rid of her paperwork - 40 years of political leaflets and bumph)