DP directing aggressive panic attacks at me

[Sapphire18]

Sorry this is long - basis of it is my partner having panic attacks which are in the form of very aggressive behaviour. Here are the details:

I am looking for advice on a recurring problem with my fiancé. We have been together for 9 years and got engaged a few months ago. It was in the third year of our relationship (when we first lived together) that I first experienced him having a kind of panic attack in which he becomes very aggressive towards me. It has never got to the point of actual violence but this has happened several times and is always extremely scary, upsetting and leaves me feeling really shaken up and tearful. About two years ago it really got to the point where I gave him a sort of ultimatum and he did a stress management course. It seemed to help as he learned coping mechanisms like going for a walk when feeling stressed, and spotting the triggers / warning signs. Since he did the stress management course there have been considerably fewer of these incidents (e.g. once every 6-9 months?) however last night it happened again. The previous incident was 5 months ago.

To give you an idea of what actually happens – it’s usually triggered by his frustration that I am not listening to him / he can’t control or change something. E.g. the previous incident was his frustration at not being able to stop me feeling depressed. Last night it was that he thought I was not listening to him when he was trying to explain to me about a DIY problem we’ve been having.

He uses his physicality to stop me leaving the room when I am trying to end a conversation calmly or storm out in an argument. I have tried to explain I am using the same technique he learned in stress management but he thinks I am dismissing the conversation we’re having.

Last night I told him I didn’t want to talk about the DIY as he was using a very patronising tone with me (and it was almost midnight and I wanted to get ready for bed). He blocked me from leaving the room to go to the bathroom. I repeatedly asked him to move and he refused, saying he wanted to make me understand the DIY problem. I felt trapped and got up on the bed to get out of the room by a different route. He jumped up on the bed and held his arms around my legs so I couldn’t move. I told him he was hurting my knee (which is recovering from a bike accident) and he refused to let go. I repeatedly asked him but he wouldn’t so I pinched his ear and kicked him and hit him. Not hard enough to really hurt but as a warning / to make him let me go. He didn’t let go and got me down on the bed, I calmly told him I would count to 10 and then he was to let me go. I was really starting to panic but I thought if I do I will really lash out and then we’ll both get hurt, plus I am already injured from my bike accident. He let me go on 10 and I went to leave the room but he stood in the doorway and said he wouldn’t let me until I listened to him.

By now things were calmer and we were talking rather than shouting. I told him he must not ever use his physicality over me like that. He was still focused on our disagreement over the DIY and I told him that was so minor by comparison – what I was now concerned at was his bullying behaviour. I was quite assertive that he must never ever do that (but I’ve said that before). I thought we’d de-escalated things and then I can’t remember what happened but he flipped out having one of his panic attacks. When this happens he adopts a really weird tone of voice, sounds really unstable and a bit crazy; he told me I don’t love him, I want him to hurt himself, I want him to kill himself; he threw himself around the room and I was afraid he’d hurt himself or break something; he banged his head against the floor; ripped at his clothes until he was half naked; writhed on the floor and curled up in a ball with panicked breathing and sobbing; demanded I hold his hands to make him feel safe; refused my offer of rescue remedy but then took it. These behaviours are all absolutely typical of when he gets like this. I didn’t know what to do but basically took the attitude I would with a tantruming toddler – being firm yet supportive, and trying to get him out of it without showing any emotion. However I was really torn as I didn’t want him to think behaving in this way is the way to control me or get my attention. I couldn’t seem to do anything right, whether I went near him or backed away. I was desperately trying to calm him as I was afraid he’d wake our housemates and I know when he gets like this he doesn’t care who’s watching and has no shame.

In the end I left him curled up in a ball on the floor and told him I was going to the bathroom but would come back. I was really shaken and panicky and didn’t know what to do. He was begging me not to leave him. When I returned about 2 minutes later he was in bed sobbing, saying he was only asking me to hold his hands because he felt so scared and panicked, and making out I’d been really heartless. I told him he’d really scared me, it was unacceptable and he should be in control of himself. He told me panic attacks just happen – I have experienced them too but I don’t think they necessarily mean lashing out at someone else! Then he was very apologetic, but I couldn’t stand to have him hug me, it just made my skin crawl.

I tried to sleep but couldn’t stand being near him, so tried to go to the spare room. He told me I shouldn’t; that he should; took my pillows off me so I couldn’t leave with them; begged me to stay. We tried again to talk but I was exhausted by now and said we should just go to sleep. He told me I am the one who holds all the power in this relationship, and that he did touch me when he was stopping me leaving the room, but it’s the closest we get to any intimacy these days. Admittedly we do have less sex since moving into a shared house.

This morning he told me he’d been up most of the night having panic attacks, and had to go for a walk to calm down at 5.30am (I did hear him go out then). He was very apologetic, asked me for a hug then got upset when I couldn’t bring myself to. He protested that he hasn’t got like this for ages (it used to happen much more regularly). He suggested we do relationship counselling ‘before we make any commitments’ – i.e. marriage (we’ve talked of this before) and I think it might be a good idea. I am a bit worried at the cost at an average of £50 though, and a little scared at what we might end up saying to one another.

I just don’t know what to do. Whenever this happens I ask myself what I am doing in this relationship. It makes me feel so vulnerable and frightened, and I don’t know what to do. I think he thinks that because he stops short of actually hitting me, it’s ok, or that because he’s panicking when he does it it’s not his fault. When I call it abusive he says I’m exaggerating. I desperately want him to be able to promise me it’ll never happen again but he says he can’t. I am really happy with the relationship otherwise, and excited to be marrying him but I am wondering if this can be overcome or if I should go on accepting that effectively I am with someone who’ll blow up like this from time to time?

Just to confirm, I am not looking for advice to leave him. I am looking for help in managing / eliminating this behaviour and how to address this issue.

Well done Sapphire for telling your parents. You are to be commended here, that was indeed a brave thing to do.

Great that you told your parents and they were supportive.

You could just tell people that you both realised you weren't quite ready for marriage yet? Don't lie or you'll just get tangled up in it, but you don't have to tell people (apart perhaps from close friends who will help) the whole truth.

So very pleased you have told your folks, that must have been really tough.
If you really dont want to tell people why
You can tell people that the venue is double booked and that actually you are glad as its given you time to find somewhere you really want, that you just were not quite happy with the first place but felt under pressure to choose a date and book.
could say you are going to relax and enjoy the summer
& make plans in the autumn.

Does he know that you have told your folks?

Also, just a thought - what does he think you should tell people?

Well done for telling your parents.

I worry with the doublebooked excuse that some well-meaning soul will phone round everywhere looking for another venue for you. I'd be tempted to say that he has some mental health issues that he wants to get help for and so a wedding is inappropriate. I would defy anyone to be cheeky enough to ask 'what mental health issues'. However, I agree with Foddylicious, surely part of him accepting that he has a problem is taking ownership of the consequences of his problem.

sapphire please don't end up policing him.
Abuse is about control. He is controlling you. He chooses when you talk. He chooses when you leave the room. He chooses when to let you go.

If you put yourself in the position where you put conditions on your relationship that you must monitor he will turn round and say you are controlling him. (In order to confuse you into taking responsibility for his behaviour).

Read the Lundy chapter, please, about the man who cuts down his neighbours tree.

What you need is boundaries but for yourself.
I will not tolerate this.
I will not allow myself to be treated like that.

You make a deal with yourself about what you will do for yourseld and nit what you will do about him.

Sorry just saw the post about telling your parents. Well done. You are brave.
(Far braver than I was)

You are relieved. That is good. That relief is also telling you something. You know you have done the right thing backing of from the wedding.

What I meant above by boundaries for yourself is try not to say to yourself if he does this I will do that to try to make him stop.

Instead take the view e.g. if he tries to control me I will leave him because I deserve better.
If his is physical with me I will call the police because I need to be safe.
You can choose to live apart from him while he sorts himself out because it is what you need. And you need to be safe more than he needs to use you as a crutch for his rehabilitation.

I would say there are some difficulties affecting paying for the wedding (there are: it makes no sense to lash out money on a wedding if the relationship isn't right) and so you are putting it off now to decide what are the best arrangements to make (ie, any or none). If anyone then asks more questions, you can say 'I'm sure you can imagine that it's all a bit depressing so I really don't want to discuss it any more'.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think abuse should be hidden. It's very good you've told your parents, and I would also consider telling your best friend if someone fits that bill. But I think it is a key thing for you now to actually postpone the wedding. If having an excuse you can comfortably use with people is what it takes, then go with that.

Good work telling your parents. That must have been so hard. It shows how strong you can be.

It was me that made the suggestion about the contract. I should be clear. I DO NOT think it is a good idea myself!

Originally you asked for help to manage him. You seemed to be being scared off by all the LTB. It sounded like you had decided to stay and manage him. I was trying to make you think about what that would mean in practise. I hoped you would see that you would need a contract with yourself (ie boundaries). And that it is no way to live. It is not a healthy relationship.

I suggested the month away if he hit you as a bit of a red rag to make you think. Obviously any right minded person would LTB and prosecute him to the full extent of the law. However, from all stories below, you can see that there are many many seemly sensible women that didn't even stay away for one night after their partners beat them. That's how badly abuse affects you. It warps your perception.

I expect that six years ago, had you written down a list like that you wouldn't have said one night away then lots of chat about him and sympathy for poor him and going ahead with the wedding would be an appropriate response to him pinning you to a bed, hurting your knee and terrifying you. But that's how you responded. Do you see how your perception might be warped?

Do you see why if you stay you'll have to make a list like that? That's a bad start to marriage.

Even if you do cancel the wedding (and please please do cancel), if you stay with him as it seems you plan to, you will have to set boundaries, monitor compliance and put him on the naughty step when he inevitably crosses your boundaries.

Is that really what you want out of life?

If you love him, if you want to save him, let him go. He has to save himself.

Remember that there are lots of strangers who care and are worried about you. Your friends should be genuine enough to support you if you do stay with him having told them what he has done or in the tiny chance that he decided to stop being a wanker.

This man is bad news.

I really don't want YOU to be the news.

You've done an incredibly brave thing today Sapphire, I know how tough that would have been for you.

People aren't shouting here although I can understand why it would feel that way to you, it must be overwhelming to have 100s of posts from women that have all been in exactly the same position as you, but unfortunately can't tell you the fairy tale ending because it just hasn't turned out that way.

You really have taken a brilliant, massive step today, don't underestimate what a fantastic thing it is. Tell other people anything, your parents can help you with that.

Keep posting, and keep question ing everything, don't allow yourself to be manipulated.

Honestly, well done

I am sorry you felt we were shouting.

It is all bloody complicated as you obviously love him, and I imagine he loves you. That should be enough, but sometimes it isn't.

It is great that you told your parents.

I agree with others that it isn't necessary to tell everyone everything.

Saying the venue double booked is a good one. Keep excuses simple and short.

I really hope it all works out, and I am glad you told your folks. MN can be great but also a bit scary, and you need RL support.

Be kind to yourself, you have just made some big decisions.

Sometimes growing up hurts, I think. ( not bring patronising, at the grand old age of 45 I am still learning!)

Congrats, Sapphire. That was a good move.

I'd tell people that it's too stressful planning and you've got a lot on with work at the moment.

That's inoffensive, understandable and doesn't go into the abuse.

I Don t think you should lie, but I think you'll come round to that conclusion yourself too.

Well that's not really what I want to say because if he reforms himself that's not really a helpful label to have put him

Eh? Of course it's helpful! How can he ever reform if he keeps lying about who and what he is? If he's genuinely committed to changing then he should have the guts to admit openly how he's been behaving.

At the end of the day if he sorts this out I need my friends to be supportive
Your friends can only be supportive of you two as a couple in any meaningful sense if they have all the facts.

Your eagerness to hide all this and lie to the people you want "support" from is not promising for a happy outcome.

I've been following your thread Sapphire and just wanted to add my 'well done' for telling your parents.
Stay strong.

Also, to echo previous posters, I would be very dubious about relying on a short course to undo the years of damage that prompted him to abuse you.
He needs years of therapy sweetheart. Years.
Think about it. No matter how wonderful you think he is other than the abusive behaviour, he thought it was ok to frighten you, hurt you and trap you. That is a truly twisted psyche, especially as he is supposedly your 'soulmate' the rest of the time.

My EA ex had therapy years ago (before I knew him) for his terrible childhood, and believes that following this, he has absolutely no baggage from his past. I know, having lived with him that he is a very very damaged individual who will forever be scarred by his past. The fact he is also very arrogant means that he lacks any insight into his behaviour towards women.
Please consider this too.

I'm not surprised at the fantastic advice given on this thread even though it's being ignored

I won't be surprised when op marries him.

I won't be surprised when op comes back to MN in less than a year because his abuse has got worse now they are married.

I won't be surprised that MN will be there to hand hold, support and not judge when that does happen - as it will.

Good luck op, hope those blinkers you have on don't last long

Formally: "After much soul searching we have decided we are not yet ready for marriage and children. We will not marry on ."

Perhaps mother of the bride sends the announcement "After much soul searching X and Y have decided they are not yet ready for marriage. The wedding on has been cancelled. I am sure you will all understand what a difficult decision this has been for X and Y. We hope that you, like us, will continue to give them your love and support. Kindest regards ."

To gossip-mongers after fodder: "We have issues to work through. It is painful. I don't want to talk about it now".

Spot on Cookie but I fear the OP will carry on trying to fix the unfixable. You can't fix him because he isn't broken. He is just an abusive wanker.

Sapphire, yes we are all shouting at you. We can see you heading into the attic in the flimsy nightie. We want to rugby tackle you to the ground!

Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.

Could you cancel the wedding then separate for a few weeks while he does the DV course and you read Lundy (and browse old MN relationship threads) while staying at your parents? Give you both breathing space. You are suffocating each other now.

I'm so proud of you for telling your parents. I feel so much better knowing you have RL people who love you in your corner to help keep you safe and grounded. Well done love-

Little steps like this make the big problems easier to handle. No matter how many times we tell you what we feel is the best thing for you, you have to be the one to make that call and live with the results. Personally, it would be a huge relief for me to know you've put the wedding to the side, moved out and let you two have time to work on your own issues. I think I could rest easy knowing you are safe- You will make your mind up on what you want. Keep making progress, baby steps are still movement in the right direction.

I've namechanged (been here since 2009) to respond to sillylass's posts because it's something I'd never normally admit to but she has described me almost perfectly here:

He may very well want to change as most people do not want to live a life of suffering or believe they make others suffer. However I believe abusers are essentially broken with immature or malfunctioning prefrontal cortices, so that they revert in even mild stress to almost animal states, devoid of the ability to regulate their bodies and emotions, impulses etc with very little ability to attune themselves to another, experience true self-insight and intuition, be empathetic and be truly moral and ethical. The context for the regression is intimate and family relationships where they can 'get away' with it and the behaviour flourishes and increases exponentially where they meet with someone willing to allow and accommodate reactive behaviour

I have been aware for a while now that I have emotionally abusive tendencies in the context of my family relationships and some friendships (although, weirdly, almost all of my romantic relationships have been with men who have been abusive to me) and it's something I actively battle with.

Sillylass's words above are the most accurate reflection of my character/behaviour that I've ever read. I really do want to change, I am deeply ashamed of myself and I don't want the people I love to suffer at my hands. I hate the way I am. And yet there's this bizarre, baseless sense of righteousness that takes over and I behave atrociously. I can only ever see afterwards that my behaviour was appalling: at the time it feels justified. It's not though. There is something wrong with me - there is something wrong with how I see things and how I respond. I don't know what is wrong with me but I know something is wrong.
I have two friends who used to be married; he has borderline personality disorder and he was very violent to her, culminating in his being arrested for assault/false imprisonment and their eventual divorce. I had a long conversation with her once about the way he saw things and there was an unsettling level of similarity between his behaviour and mine; she and I jointly identified the trigger for his and my explosive rages as "apprehending a truth," by which we meant the perception that someone had behaved in an objectively absolutely unacceptable way which warranted an extreme reaction. Obviously, the reaction wasn't actually justified, ever. Ever.
I know now that there is something very, very wrong with me and with the way perceive things. I also know that if I act on my feelings of rage and frustration, I damage my relationships. I know that people are under no obligation to accommodate me and my irrational anger, so I carefully limit the amount of time I spend with people I care about and I am vigilant about my behaviour when I am with them. I know my triggers and I take action to avoid them. I am an abusive arsehole and I know that nobody deserves to be subjected to the levels of contempt/derision/aggression that I'm capable of. There's a saying about being in a relationship - something about how you shouldn't worry about finding the right person, you should focus on being the right person. I can't be the right person, so I'm single. That's just how it is. That is what you do when you actually accept that you're an abuser: you consider the potential effects of your behaviour on other people and you inevitably conclude that you need to keep your distance.

What I'm saying is that your DP hasn't accepted that he's an abuser.

I have no doubt that he may be very genuinely remorseful and he may even genuinely want to change... but none of that changes the fact that because you have demonstrated to him you are willing to accommodate instances of abuse and you are more afraid of being alone/what others will think/cancelling a wedding than of physical abuse, you are like an abuser's drug and he will remain addicted to the reactive state where he can lash out if he doesn't get his own way

^Yup. Sorry, but again this is entirely accurate. He knows he's being abusive and he can see your reluctance to cancel/postpone the wedding for exactly what it is: permission to carry on being aggressive. Do you actually think he respects you? He doesn't. I don't respect you. You are craven and desperate. Your behaviour would be like a red rag to a bull to someone like me. Which is what he is: someone like me.

any one rage could leave you raped, broken boned or dead. Every time you choose to stay that outcome becomes more likely. If you do choose to stay DO NOT have children. Indulge your own dysfunction if you must and take the risk it will kill you but for God's sake don't increase the pain and suffering in the world by making another generation of people who abuse and who will allow themselves to be abused

^I agree a thousand times with this. If you somehow get off on being with a violent cunt, fine - do what you need to do. But don't imagine that creating new human beings and bringing them into this situation is in any way morally acceptable.

That is a very brave and sadly accurate post whitezip
I recognise so much of what you say from the actions and mindset of my abusive ex. He, however, has never had the desire or ability to gain your kind of insight, and has continued to be abusive in every consequent relationship, to a lesser or far greater degree. And to deny, minimise or lay blame at others.
So far he is damaging 2 children from 2 different mothers as well.
Although neither I nor the other mother would be without our children, we both wish to god that we had never chosen such an abusive father for our child. We have to cope each day with the multiple emotional and psychological fallout that this man has wrecked on our children, to see how their futures are at risk from having such a man as a role model, despite our both having left him. We both know that his influence may well affect their choice of partner, their ability to form healthy relationships themselves, and years and years of therapy and to help a child deal with the conflict of 'loving' their dad whilst being too scared to see them.
My daughter was 6 when she was frightened so badly by him that we ceased any contact at all for 3 years. She suffered nightmares and started to have rages when previously she had mainly been a happy little girl. She is 13 now and has supervised - 2 hours every other week or so. She has been in therapy on and off since them. She had a breakdown at 11. She left school at 12. His involvement has been a major factor in destroying her self esteem. We are nowhere near dealing with this mess. It destroys lives and destroys families.
The other little boy celebrated his 6th birthday just recvently. He hasnt seen his dad for 8 months. He frightened him so badly that he doesnt want to see him. He has been having nightmares and frequent rages.........

And also dont imagine that my daughter's father is awful to her. By contrast most of the time he is pleasant and generous. A bit too heavy on talking about himself all the time, and needs watching to make sure that where they meet has no flashpoints for him, but 90% of the time she enjoys seeing him, loves him, and wants to see him. Its the 10% though - the odd thing he will say, the situations where he may lose control, the fact he needs to be supervised. They are far from monsters all the time.

I'm glad whitezip reposted this:

If you do choose to stay DO NOT have children. Indulge your own dysfunction if you must and take the risk it will kill you but for God's sake don't increase the pain and suffering in the world by making another generation of people who abuse and who will allow themselves to be abused

I could not agree with this more. Make your own choices but don't foist them on children. Having children with this man would be utter selfishness on your part. I was trapped in a dysfunctional family because of my parents' relationship dynamic. It was beyond awful and I only survived because I had a clear, unwavering plan to escape as soon as I could and to make my own way in the world. I don't love or respect my parents, particularly now I have kids of my own and can truly appreciate the harm they did, and the fall out from their relationship has irretrievably soured my relationship with my sibling too. Maybe it will cost you everything sticking by him, maybe it won't but for God's sake do not have children with this man.