DP directing aggressive panic attacks at me

[Sapphire18]

Sorry this is long - basis of it is my partner having panic attacks which are in the form of very aggressive behaviour. Here are the details:

I am looking for advice on a recurring problem with my fiancé. We have been together for 9 years and got engaged a few months ago. It was in the third year of our relationship (when we first lived together) that I first experienced him having a kind of panic attack in which he becomes very aggressive towards me. It has never got to the point of actual violence but this has happened several times and is always extremely scary, upsetting and leaves me feeling really shaken up and tearful. About two years ago it really got to the point where I gave him a sort of ultimatum and he did a stress management course. It seemed to help as he learned coping mechanisms like going for a walk when feeling stressed, and spotting the triggers / warning signs. Since he did the stress management course there have been considerably fewer of these incidents (e.g. once every 6-9 months?) however last night it happened again. The previous incident was 5 months ago.

To give you an idea of what actually happens – it’s usually triggered by his frustration that I am not listening to him / he can’t control or change something. E.g. the previous incident was his frustration at not being able to stop me feeling depressed. Last night it was that he thought I was not listening to him when he was trying to explain to me about a DIY problem we’ve been having.

He uses his physicality to stop me leaving the room when I am trying to end a conversation calmly or storm out in an argument. I have tried to explain I am using the same technique he learned in stress management but he thinks I am dismissing the conversation we’re having.

Last night I told him I didn’t want to talk about the DIY as he was using a very patronising tone with me (and it was almost midnight and I wanted to get ready for bed). He blocked me from leaving the room to go to the bathroom. I repeatedly asked him to move and he refused, saying he wanted to make me understand the DIY problem. I felt trapped and got up on the bed to get out of the room by a different route. He jumped up on the bed and held his arms around my legs so I couldn’t move. I told him he was hurting my knee (which is recovering from a bike accident) and he refused to let go. I repeatedly asked him but he wouldn’t so I pinched his ear and kicked him and hit him. Not hard enough to really hurt but as a warning / to make him let me go. He didn’t let go and got me down on the bed, I calmly told him I would count to 10 and then he was to let me go. I was really starting to panic but I thought if I do I will really lash out and then we’ll both get hurt, plus I am already injured from my bike accident. He let me go on 10 and I went to leave the room but he stood in the doorway and said he wouldn’t let me until I listened to him.

By now things were calmer and we were talking rather than shouting. I told him he must not ever use his physicality over me like that. He was still focused on our disagreement over the DIY and I told him that was so minor by comparison – what I was now concerned at was his bullying behaviour. I was quite assertive that he must never ever do that (but I’ve said that before). I thought we’d de-escalated things and then I can’t remember what happened but he flipped out having one of his panic attacks. When this happens he adopts a really weird tone of voice, sounds really unstable and a bit crazy; he told me I don’t love him, I want him to hurt himself, I want him to kill himself; he threw himself around the room and I was afraid he’d hurt himself or break something; he banged his head against the floor; ripped at his clothes until he was half naked; writhed on the floor and curled up in a ball with panicked breathing and sobbing; demanded I hold his hands to make him feel safe; refused my offer of rescue remedy but then took it. These behaviours are all absolutely typical of when he gets like this. I didn’t know what to do but basically took the attitude I would with a tantruming toddler – being firm yet supportive, and trying to get him out of it without showing any emotion. However I was really torn as I didn’t want him to think behaving in this way is the way to control me or get my attention. I couldn’t seem to do anything right, whether I went near him or backed away. I was desperately trying to calm him as I was afraid he’d wake our housemates and I know when he gets like this he doesn’t care who’s watching and has no shame.

In the end I left him curled up in a ball on the floor and told him I was going to the bathroom but would come back. I was really shaken and panicky and didn’t know what to do. He was begging me not to leave him. When I returned about 2 minutes later he was in bed sobbing, saying he was only asking me to hold his hands because he felt so scared and panicked, and making out I’d been really heartless. I told him he’d really scared me, it was unacceptable and he should be in control of himself. He told me panic attacks just happen – I have experienced them too but I don’t think they necessarily mean lashing out at someone else! Then he was very apologetic, but I couldn’t stand to have him hug me, it just made my skin crawl.

I tried to sleep but couldn’t stand being near him, so tried to go to the spare room. He told me I shouldn’t; that he should; took my pillows off me so I couldn’t leave with them; begged me to stay. We tried again to talk but I was exhausted by now and said we should just go to sleep. He told me I am the one who holds all the power in this relationship, and that he did touch me when he was stopping me leaving the room, but it’s the closest we get to any intimacy these days. Admittedly we do have less sex since moving into a shared house.

This morning he told me he’d been up most of the night having panic attacks, and had to go for a walk to calm down at 5.30am (I did hear him go out then). He was very apologetic, asked me for a hug then got upset when I couldn’t bring myself to. He protested that he hasn’t got like this for ages (it used to happen much more regularly). He suggested we do relationship counselling ‘before we make any commitments’ – i.e. marriage (we’ve talked of this before) and I think it might be a good idea. I am a bit worried at the cost at an average of £50 though, and a little scared at what we might end up saying to one another.

I just don’t know what to do. Whenever this happens I ask myself what I am doing in this relationship. It makes me feel so vulnerable and frightened, and I don’t know what to do. I think he thinks that because he stops short of actually hitting me, it’s ok, or that because he’s panicking when he does it it’s not his fault. When I call it abusive he says I’m exaggerating. I desperately want him to be able to promise me it’ll never happen again but he says he can’t. I am really happy with the relationship otherwise, and excited to be marrying him but I am wondering if this can be overcome or if I should go on accepting that effectively I am with someone who’ll blow up like this from time to time?

Just to confirm, I am not looking for advice to leave him. I am looking for help in managing / eliminating this behaviour and how to address this issue.

Your desperation to cling on to your dreams is blinding you to the harsh, cold truth about this man.

I'm not telling you this as a criticism, but as one of hundreds on here who have told you they have made the same mistake, and got very badly hurt doing so.

Your self respect and self worth has been so badly corroded that you cannot see why you need to see change before marrying?? And the fact t th you're focussing on this rather than getting yourself out is just more proof of the damage he's done to your self esteem.

Imagine this.

If you are so crippled with fear, self doubt and worry now, think about how you'll feel in 5, 10, 15 years when you are still waiting to see a change. Still desperately hoping, and sickened with the knowledge, deep down, that it won't change.

It won't.

You're right, you are at a crossroads in your life.

Now you have the chance to save yourself from being abused anymore than you so clearly already have been.

Please take that chance.

Sapphire I am so sorry you are in a relationship with an abusive arse. It is so hard to see and think clearly when someone has been lightly altering reality for as long as your partner has been altering yours. Been there, done that.

You don't sound like a mug at all, you sound like someone who has some version of Stockholm syndrome whereby, if I get to 'this' goal, everything will be ok, if he does 'this' DV course, everything will be ok. It's magical thinking to keep you safe.

Cancel the wedding for now. Don't postpone it, cancel it. No one is banning weddings in a year's time if they aren't booked right now, so by cancelling it, you won't have lost out on anything. See how things go. Get yourself some counselling, with the length of time you have been in a relationship with this abusive man, it would be amazing if you haven't been adversely affected. Concentrate on yourself for a good long while. If he is going to properly engage with his therapy, he will have to concentrate on himself, if he is still badgering you to be there for him, he won't be properly engaging.

Maybe try the Freedom programme, it might help you to understand why you stuck around so long, and help you to recognise abusive behaviour in future relationships.

I understand the clinging to hope. Really I do, but you maybe need to think solely about yourself for a while.

These courses exist basically because there would be outrage if various agencies in the country didn't appear to be doing something about the problem.

If he's commited to change, then how come he quit the anger management? What lies did you tell yourself to pretend it was okay? What part of yourself did you have to extinguish or diminish to make it okay to allow yourself to be abused?

What lies are you going to tell yourself when he quits counselling, or the abuse therapy? That the stress of the wedding made him act that way?

Why don't you ask an expert if they think you should marry him whilst he's doing a DV course, or, indeed, at all? Although you already know the answer is going to be HELL, NO.

The truth about abuse in a relationship is that once it has occured, it has poisoned that relationship forever. He knows he can treat you like this, there is no real motivatioj for him to change for good. He will change just as long it takes to sucker you back in and shut you up.

If he truly wanted to change, and to not be like this,he would have left you years ago, in order to work on his shit because he really wanted help, not because you've issues some ultimatum (and he knows you let him off the hook if he fails at those, anyway). If he loved you, he would make himself be apart from you so he stopped hurting you, and until he could stop hurting you. Actually, if he wanted to change, he wouldn't do this in the first place. If he can control himself not to act like this at work, with others, when socialising, etc., then he can control himself to not act like it with you. But he doesn't - he chooses to act like this to you. He chooses to abuse you. He wants to abuse you. He needs to abuse you.

Frankly, it was already too late for him to change when he was still in primary school. This man is damaged and can only damage those close to him.

Again, do not choose to be abused purely for a one-day party and a pretty dress, FFs. Try to value yourself a little bit more than that.

Well, lots of men get referred to them by social services and the assessment at the end is taken to indicate how much/if a man has changed. There will be some indication at the end as to how much impact the course will have had.

Three things are really important for you to accept though -

Agreeing to do the course doesn't change his likelihood of being abusive. Abusers don't 'see the light' and stop abusing just like that. There is a lot of work to do.

These courses have some success but not much. They work for some men but they do nothing for others. This isn't a sure thing.

You can't be in a relationship with him and especially not a marriage while he does it, it will make it pointless.

I'm so sorry, I feel I am fighting against you all but I am just trying to work through this and it feels huge.

I am not 100% convinced that his therapy will be compromised by me not being around. I think of times I got therapy and having him around didn't reduce how effective it was.

@CaptChaos the wedding IS booked right now - 2 months, 3 weeks away.

Nothing is final. Of course you can get married and then divorce afterwards. I remember someone telling me not to move int with my ex and then saying if you do it won't be fair to leave as he'll be even more dependent on you. I'm sure they told me that because they wanted to discourage me from moving in. But I did move in so it had the effect of making it harder for me to leave.

All people are saying is that you have real options. while cancelling now might seem far to big and scary. It is actually not that difficult and once done takes off a lot of pressure from you.

Imagine it is 2 weeks till the wedding. Everything is booked and paid for. Everyone has paid for travel and accommodation and your dress looks great. Your dp then kicks off in some way. You stand up for yourself and he suggests the wedding should be cancelled because he is so worthless etc. what will you have to say/ promise then to placate him? You will be on eggshells for the whole time you are planning the wedding.

If you cancel now and in a year or toe you feel he has changed then you will both enjoy the planning and the feeling you actually have something to celebrate.

Incidentally, just take a look at some of the other threads in Relationships. So many of them are about how women have forgiven men for various things (abuse, cheating, etc.), and how they promised the earth, even went on courses... And now things are just as bad or even worse, and they children/more children to worry about, etc.

There's a reason why you NEVER see threads here, or articles in the media about how abusive men have changed and become lovely, decent partners and fathers again. It's because it doesn't happen (for good), and it won't happen for you.

You're desperate for answers and absolutes about the future and what your choices should be. No one can tell you definitively - and certainly not your fiancé.

Every choice we make in life is essentially a leap of faith because we have no idea what the future holds. But we can minimise risks and we can listen to our gut feelings.

Your confusion and unhappiness and your anxiety are telling you something. Please don't minimise actual events in the now - so that you can cling to a (possible) future of husband, kids & happy family.

Stop thinking about him, his behaviour, his problems. Focus on yourself. Ask yourself how you got here. Why have you accepted these measly crumbs of affection when you deserve much more? Get some counselling. Take a break from this man - if only for a week go no contact.

Do you think you deserve a happy relationship with a man who doesn't need any looking after & who doesn't behave like this?

You are strong enough and you can trust yourself to know what is right.

I am clinging to hope and wondering if the fact these DV courses exist means they do have some success rate?

Wrinkle creams exist, but the vast majority doesn't work.

For DV courses to work, the perpetrator has to want to not abuse.

Sadly, it involves a deep change within that person.
As alcoholics are always alcoholics, they are still abusers at the core, and the most likely outcome is that the minute your guard is down or you are in any way dependent on him he will abuse again.

Seriously, try to tell him that the wedding is off and see what he says.

Sapphire, your therapy was not to address your abuse of him though was it?
You and he will be continuing the patterns and dynamics of the relationship you have always had, if you continue in it. This will make any attempts that he makes to alter those dynamics doubly difficult. It's too easy to slip back into familiar responses, especially when you have been together as long as you two have.
He, if he takes it seriously, will be trying very hard to change his thought patterns and implement strategies to deal with his feelings differently. You will trigger old patterns of behaviour just by being yourself. He will be trying to re-educate his brain while fighting against what his brain believes fundamentally, and you being there will reinforce those old patterns.
Honestly, there is zero point in him doing the course while you continue in a relationship.

CaptChaos the wedding IS booked right now - 2 months, 3 weeks away.

Sorry, to be clear, I know it is booked, hence suggesting that you cancel rather than merely postpone it. All I was saying is that, if you cancel it, it would be just as easy to rebook it all as it is going to be to postpone at this stage. Sorry for the confusing.

I'm so sorry, Sapphire. This thing is massive and scary, I really feel for you.

All I can say is look after yourself. It is absolutely right and proper for you to put yourself first, here, not fiance or family or friends or housemates or anyone else. Put your interests above everyone else's, and decide what is best for you.

Sapphire, the treatment for DV, and the therapy you will have had are completely different. For a start, you were not having therapy because you choose to control, intimidate, and abuse others, were you?

It is utterly irrelevant to try to compare them.

What were you having therapy for, btw? Low self-esteem and similar, stemming from childhood? See a connection between stuff like that and being with an abuser? It's also very common for abused women to get therapy or ADs, because they are convinced there is something wrong with them, and can't or won't see that the real problem is the abuser.

OP I reread your original post so as to think about the nature of this abuse. A couple of things really stood out to me from what you wrote about what his flash points and triggers are.

1. if he expects your full attention, he must have it
2. he didn't like you being depressed: it was a problem for him
3. you're not giving him enough sexual attention
4. despite you loyally sticking by him through thick and thin and planning to marry him, you don't love him enough. I hope you can see these are control issues, not panic issues. I hope you can see that your future with him will be based on denying and abnegating yourself and your needs to the point where you are just a listening post, a sex object and spending all day making this boy feel loved. It makes me think of that really old Neil Kinnock speech- If you still marry him, I warn you not to be sick, not to be pregnant, not to demand anything, not to look away during a conversation, not to be needy, not to be depressed... Etc etc

Sapphire - I bet the difference was that your therapy wasn't for something that you thought he was to blame for. Remember, he blames YOU for his actions. Its YOUR FAULT that he's like this. In fact, now he has acknowledged it is abuse, he has effectively admitted not only that he's abusing you, but has blamed YOU for that. There is no way that he can do this course with you on the scene, there really isn't. And what's to stop the abuse happening before the course is through anyway? All of the stress of the wedding is not going to help it (although my guess is that he will be all sweetness and light until the wedding's over then it will all come crashing down).

"I may sound like a mug but I believe he truly wants to change and is committed to doing everything to ensure that happens. I really want that too"

Sorry Sapphire but that is pure desperation on your part along with hope over experience. These men can promise the world and it all means sod all. He feels totally entitled to hit you and hurt you. Such men do not fundamentally change; as his fiancée you are too close to the situation to be of any real use to him not that he wants your help anyway.

These men too hate women, all of them.

What you want from him and what you receive from him are two very different things. You will certainly have a miserable marriage with him, your overall life with him currently is pretty much down the plughole now. Why do you value your own self so poorly?.

What did you learn about relationships exactly when you were growing up?.

I am not 100% convinced that his therapy will be compromised by me not being around. I think of times I got therapy and having him around didn't reduce how effective it was.

There is a huge difference here. Because you are his victim.
No criminal is kept in contact with his victims.
No alcoholic can be treated while drinking.
No drug addict can recover while taking drugs.

^^ this

^^^ Absolutely what Lweji said

Sapphire please talk to someone in RL who cares about you, like your parents or a close friend. You are under immense stress at the moment, and you really need some support of your own. There is only so much that posters on here can do for you - please just reach out to someone in RL. I am sure they would want to know what you are going through.

You've had 6 years of this behaviour occurring every 6 months ish. I wouldn't put any hope on it being cured (if ever) in the next 2 months.

I was in an abusive first marriage. It took everything I had to leave but I have never regretted leaving. You deserve so much more than this.

Even if we postpone the wedding by a year, how does that prove the course has worked? Will there ever be proof? Something could always happen tomorrow but do we postpone for ever?

Postponing for a year doesn't prove the course has worked. It will show you whether he can go a year without abusing you.

There will never be proof.

Yes, postpone forever, because something could always happen tomorrow.

What is your red line by the way? Will you leave for good if he punches you? Rapes you? Holds you on the bed again?

Why not phone the DV people yourself? Ask them what they would recommend about your plans to become married to him in 3 months time? You said his friend is horrified at his behaviour. Have you spoken to his friend? Asked him what he thinks about your plans?

Give up the wedding fantasy. You know marrying him now is wrong.

Bear in mind, you don't need to agree with us and believe that he is bad and you are good; you don't have to dislike and denigrate him; you don't have to believe he is to blame for the problems; IN ORDER TO LEAVE THE RELATIONSHIP.

It is perfectly alright to leave a relationship, however nice and not-to-blame your partner is, because it is making you unhappy or scared or not working for you in some way. So you really don't have to subscribe to the overwhelming view on this thread (though I hope you come to see the force of a lot of it).

The question is whether this relationship with its episodes of severe mistreatment is right for you. Is it enough? Is it likely to get worse? And if so, are you ok with that?

The only thing I will say about the future is please don't fall into the trap of treating this relationship as your only chance for happiness. It isn't. The overwhelming likelihood is that plenty of other good things will come your way.

Thank you everyone. Feeling utterly desperate here, your messages are so appreciated.

@Lweji -
''For DV courses to work, the perpetrator has to want to not abuse.''
I know I may sound naive but I truly feel he now wants to not abuse. In the past 2 days he's gone from saying it just happens, he can't control it, etc. to realising it has gone on too long, we've normalised it, he can never ever be abusive again, he's going to lose me, promises alone aren't enough, it is still abuse even if not hitting, he IS a perpetrator.

I feel he's gained a huge amount of self awareness of the severity of this and is really motivated to change.

From experience, it's easy to believe that they are willing to change.
Mine changed as he crossed a door once.

I fully understand that you want to be hopeful. Sadly, I don't think you should.