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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

DP directing aggressive panic attacks at me

794 replies

Sapphire18 · 09/06/2014 11:20

Sorry this is long - basis of it is my partner having panic attacks which are in the form of very aggressive behaviour. Here are the details:

I am looking for advice on a recurring problem with my fiancé. We have been together for 9 years and got engaged a few months ago. It was in the third year of our relationship (when we first lived together) that I first experienced him having a kind of panic attack in which he becomes very aggressive towards me. It has never got to the point of actual violence but this has happened several times and is always extremely scary, upsetting and leaves me feeling really shaken up and tearful. About two years ago it really got to the point where I gave him a sort of ultimatum and he did a stress management course. It seemed to help as he learned coping mechanisms like going for a walk when feeling stressed, and spotting the triggers / warning signs. Since he did the stress management course there have been considerably fewer of these incidents (e.g. once every 6-9 months?) however last night it happened again. The previous incident was 5 months ago.

To give you an idea of what actually happens – it’s usually triggered by his frustration that I am not listening to him / he can’t control or change something. E.g. the previous incident was his frustration at not being able to stop me feeling depressed. Last night it was that he thought I was not listening to him when he was trying to explain to me about a DIY problem we’ve been having.

He uses his physicality to stop me leaving the room when I am trying to end a conversation calmly or storm out in an argument. I have tried to explain I am using the same technique he learned in stress management but he thinks I am dismissing the conversation we’re having.

Last night I told him I didn’t want to talk about the DIY as he was using a very patronising tone with me (and it was almost midnight and I wanted to get ready for bed). He blocked me from leaving the room to go to the bathroom. I repeatedly asked him to move and he refused, saying he wanted to make me understand the DIY problem. I felt trapped and got up on the bed to get out of the room by a different route. He jumped up on the bed and held his arms around my legs so I couldn’t move. I told him he was hurting my knee (which is recovering from a bike accident) and he refused to let go. I repeatedly asked him but he wouldn’t so I pinched his ear and kicked him and hit him. Not hard enough to really hurt but as a warning / to make him let me go. He didn’t let go and got me down on the bed, I calmly told him I would count to 10 and then he was to let me go. I was really starting to panic but I thought if I do I will really lash out and then we’ll both get hurt, plus I am already injured from my bike accident. He let me go on 10 and I went to leave the room but he stood in the doorway and said he wouldn’t let me until I listened to him.

By now things were calmer and we were talking rather than shouting. I told him he must not ever use his physicality over me like that. He was still focused on our disagreement over the DIY and I told him that was so minor by comparison – what I was now concerned at was his bullying behaviour. I was quite assertive that he must never ever do that (but I’ve said that before). I thought we’d de-escalated things and then I can’t remember what happened but he flipped out having one of his panic attacks. When this happens he adopts a really weird tone of voice, sounds really unstable and a bit crazy; he told me I don’t love him, I want him to hurt himself, I want him to kill himself; he threw himself around the room and I was afraid he’d hurt himself or break something; he banged his head against the floor; ripped at his clothes until he was half naked; writhed on the floor and curled up in a ball with panicked breathing and sobbing; demanded I hold his hands to make him feel safe; refused my offer of rescue remedy but then took it. These behaviours are all absolutely typical of when he gets like this. I didn’t know what to do but basically took the attitude I would with a tantruming toddler – being firm yet supportive, and trying to get him out of it without showing any emotion. However I was really torn as I didn’t want him to think behaving in this way is the way to control me or get my attention. I couldn’t seem to do anything right, whether I went near him or backed away. I was desperately trying to calm him as I was afraid he’d wake our housemates and I know when he gets like this he doesn’t care who’s watching and has no shame.

In the end I left him curled up in a ball on the floor and told him I was going to the bathroom but would come back. I was really shaken and panicky and didn’t know what to do. He was begging me not to leave him. When I returned about 2 minutes later he was in bed sobbing, saying he was only asking me to hold his hands because he felt so scared and panicked, and making out I’d been really heartless. I told him he’d really scared me, it was unacceptable and he should be in control of himself. He told me panic attacks just happen – I have experienced them too but I don’t think they necessarily mean lashing out at someone else! Then he was very apologetic, but I couldn’t stand to have him hug me, it just made my skin crawl.

I tried to sleep but couldn’t stand being near him, so tried to go to the spare room. He told me I shouldn’t; that he should; took my pillows off me so I couldn’t leave with them; begged me to stay. We tried again to talk but I was exhausted by now and said we should just go to sleep. He told me I am the one who holds all the power in this relationship, and that he did touch me when he was stopping me leaving the room, but it’s the closest we get to any intimacy these days. Admittedly we do have less sex since moving into a shared house.

This morning he told me he’d been up most of the night having panic attacks, and had to go for a walk to calm down at 5.30am (I did hear him go out then). He was very apologetic, asked me for a hug then got upset when I couldn’t bring myself to. He protested that he hasn’t got like this for ages (it used to happen much more regularly). He suggested we do relationship counselling ‘before we make any commitments’ – i.e. marriage (we’ve talked of this before) and I think it might be a good idea. I am a bit worried at the cost at an average of £50 though, and a little scared at what we might end up saying to one another.

I just don’t know what to do. Whenever this happens I ask myself what I am doing in this relationship. It makes me feel so vulnerable and frightened, and I don’t know what to do. I think he thinks that because he stops short of actually hitting me, it’s ok, or that because he’s panicking when he does it it’s not his fault. When I call it abusive he says I’m exaggerating. I desperately want him to be able to promise me it’ll never happen again but he says he can’t. I am really happy with the relationship otherwise, and excited to be marrying him but I am wondering if this can be overcome or if I should go on accepting that effectively I am with someone who’ll blow up like this from time to time?

Just to confirm, I am not looking for advice to leave him. I am looking for help in managing / eliminating this behaviour and how to address this issue.

OP posts:
Cerisier · 11/06/2014 12:25

Postpone the wedding if you're not feeling confident enough to totally call it off. You cannot marry a man who has told you they can't guarantee not to hurt you and stop you leaving a room and blames you for it in the first place.

Totally agree. He is such hard work OP. You only have one life and are wasting years on someone who is not going to make you happy. I would be devastated if one of my daughters was in a relationship with a man like this.

SmashleyHop · 11/06/2014 12:31

The fact he was shocked you rang DV hotline and left for the evening shows me a lot. Anyone should understand this would be a normal reaction to how he behaved- not surprised by it. If he truly "got it" then I think he would understand your necessity to call for help.

I agree while it is nice he's telling you all this, isn't this what he did before? Apologize, even go to receive some sort of help and still this most recent event took place. I would just be very careful how you choose to proceed. I agree with still postponing the wedding until things are acceptable (if at all) because really the longer you put this off the harder it will be to do so at all. SDTG is right- he would be understanding of this if he truly understood the gravity of the situation.

Sapphire18 · 11/06/2014 12:37

He himself actually mentioned postponing or calling off the wedding. It's something he's said many times 'I am not good enough for you, we're not good for each other, I am a bad person who needs help.'

OP posts:
FairPhyllis · 11/06/2014 12:38

Glad you're OK.

But Sapphire, why are you trying to fix a relationship with a man who frightens you? What has happened in your life that has taught you to put your needs last, to the point of putting yourself in actual physical danger?

He is still bullshitting you about 'stress' and 'anger management'. This doesn't happen because he is stressed out or unable to control his anger. You said yourself in your first post that it happens specifically when he can't control something. That is because he has a problem with wanting to control you, and you should not stick around to fix that because it's very likely it will never change. Get the Lundy Bancroft book.

If you want to mess up your own life, fine, but if you plan to later bring children into this then you are being deeply, deeply irresponsible and selfish.

And I say selfish because by doing that you'll be putting your need to 'fix' him over your future children's need to grow up in an emotionally healthy household. For God's sake don't give any future children a father like this.

FairPhyllis · 11/06/2014 12:42

Crossposted.

So even he says he's a bad person. There's a MN saying, 'When a man tells you who he is, believe him'.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 11/06/2014 12:42

That is manipulative, emotionally blackmailing bull-crap, Sapphire - he wants you to say 'But I love you, you are good enough for me, and I don't want to call off the wedding'. If you actually said 'Yes, I think we should postpone the wedding until you are a better person' he would not be happy!

neolara · 11/06/2014 12:44

"It's something he's said many times 'I am not good enough for you, we're not good for each other, I am a bad person who needs help."

Um, he's absolutely right. When he tells you who he is, you should listen to what he's saying.

SauceForTheGander · 11/06/2014 12:51

book recommedation

Not sure if co-dependency book has been mentioned - it wouldn't hurt you to order this and take stock of why you feel the need to be the strong to his weak. The reviews are revealing too.

SmashleyHop · 11/06/2014 12:52

If he's saying those things to you Sapphire it means one of two things:

A- He truly feels this way which means he needs to sort himself out without the mess of a relationship. He realizes that his behavior towards you is inappropriate and dangerous and you need to break it off before you end up hurt or dead and he ends up in jail.

Or

B- He is being manipulative and selfishly hanging on to a relationship that benefits only him.

Either way I see only one way to proceed- get yourself out and wish him the best with his recovery. It's the only way you two will be happy and safe in the long run.

SpeedwellBlue · 11/06/2014 12:56

Its not meant to be this difficult OP. If it's this difficult before you have kids together, it's only going to get a lot worse when you add the stresses of kids into the mix. I'd cut your losses and go.

cestlavielife · 11/06/2014 13:11

sapphire the promises to do do this and that are typical you know that right?
so say yes fantastic great.
while you doing this I cant be with you.

the wedding is off.

we can meet and talk in three months.

if he is serious he will accept that he needs to go away for three months and improve.

but no doubt he will say he will be lost without you wont cope he loves you bla bla bla - but he will you know. he is an adult. he can fix himself (or not) .

you need to take yourself away, right away. give him/yourself three months if you like.... but that means he goes off on his own
and you go off on your own and speak to counsellor, do the freedom programme, work out what you want and need in a partner

lovemenot · 11/06/2014 13:23

Would you consider calling his bluff on this - for your own sake?

As much as you care about him and want to help him, I think you should acknowledge that this is YOUR life too. And your future and your marriage should not be something you are doing with doubt in your heart. Respect yourself first and foremost. Why should you put all your love, trust and faith in someone who does not do the same for you? Would you treat him as he treats you?

And perhaps think about phoning your wedding venue and enquiring about how to postpone the date. You could turn your honeymoon booking into a holiday for you both is he is serious about getting help.

So tell him, yes he needs to get help for himself, and yes, we need to postpone the wedding. If he is serious about this, he will do it. If he doesn't, you'll have your answer.

(Mine agreed to counseling, but gave up when the going got tough).

Paq · 11/06/2014 13:24

'I am not good enough for you, we're not good for each other, I am a bad person who needs help.'

This is so unbelievably manipulative, because it prompts the other person to contradict them "No, of course you are good enough, of course you are not a bad person..."

A genuinely contrite / self-aware person would be saying that their behaviour was unacceptable in a relationship, and until they could change, it would be safer for the relationship to end.

Thanks Sapphire, you are being incredibly brave. It is a lot to deal with in a few short days.

crazyboots · 11/06/2014 13:24

Just echoing what others have said about not bringing children into this. If deep down you are dreaming of happy families you need to find another future father of your children.

For the most part I had a rotten childhood and you are describing my parents' relationship. My mother once had a heart to heart with me and described how she had thought she could 'mend' my father before they married. I did not look kindly on that, it was not the bonding moment she hoped it would be. I thought how the hell could have thought this relationship would create reasonable, let alone happy, family life. Someone that self destructively introspective does not miraculously change into a good husband and father. The pressures of having children and the attention being shifted away from them can only make things worse.

I'm sorry if I've crossed a line, you may not even be thinking about children, and I do wish you the very best.

Sapphire18 · 11/06/2014 13:46

I feel like my whole life is coming crashing down right now. I don't know how we can separate for 3 months to work on this, and if we'd ever recover from it. Surely him saying without prompting from me that he is going to get the anger management help, and actually doing it, is a good thing?

OP posts:
Sillylass79 · 11/06/2014 13:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jan45 · 11/06/2014 13:58

It's a good thing yes, well it's a start, he's a long road to walk though. If you don't want to separate then don't but don't make any marriage arrangements until everything has been done.

Tbh I don't even know why you are considering it, you must know yourself this is not a good healthy relationship to be starting out married life.

You are kidding yourself if you think by falling short of hitting you, he isn't abusive.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 11/06/2014 13:58

Anger management is actually completely pointless for abusers. It's usually trotted out as a solution especially by the abuser but he doesn't have an anger problem if he can manage his anger in other situations.

SauceForTheGander · 11/06/2014 14:02

I feel for you. It must seem like your life is unravelling. I've been in a situation with similarities - 28 years old, engaged to someone from Uni and dealing with lots of unacceptable behaviour - not knowing if I was proving the strength of our relationship or showing what a sham it was. Sometimes we just can't bear to give up the dream or potential - it makes us ignore the grim reality - that we're unhappy.

3 months isn't much in the scheme of things and if you think your relationship couldn't survive that break then maybe that's your answer.

BeCool · 11/06/2014 14:03

If you have real anger management issues you are angry with lots of people. Does he treat his boss, colleagues, siblings, friends, extended family members etc the way he treats you?? If so then possibly anger management will help him if he is fully engaged with the process.

If it's just you he treats like this it isn't anything to do with anger management - it is domestic abuse.

The book I mentioned upthread explains this all very well. www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1402491318&sr=8-2&keywords=lundy

If it all falls to pieces in 3 months taken to explore and work on these massive issues, then surely you would be relieved not to get married?

Surely him saying without prompting from me that he is going to get the anger management help, and actually doing it, is a good thing?
Well abusers can talk the talk of course they can. My XP was utterly charming and lovely most of the time. Our/My friends were shocked when we separated and I told them how horrible and VA he was.

All he has done is talked. He must follow that up with committed action and then genuine change. This is a process and will take time - if he is committed enough to follow through. I suspect he will try to convince you that talking about it and making some empty gestures will be enough.

Please keep your eyes open and wits about you at Relate tonight. I've read many a tale on hereabout how it becomes all about the abuser and how their P should somehow be better to avoid the abuse. And therefore Relate really isn't a suitable place for couples to go for joint counselling when one of them is abusive.

Lweji · 11/06/2014 14:06

Even if you go along with the anger management offer, still postpone the wedding and move out.
First, you should not be at risk from him at any point.
Second, you should see if he does stick to the therapy.
Third, 3 months is nothing to change a person's ingrained behaviour. I'd look at what happened over one year at least.

However:
BUT in discussions still occasionally says the odd thing that makes me think he doesn't accept quite all of the blame.
I don't see how you can trust that he will get better. He may accept eventually, after some work, but if you are with him during the process I do think he'll start pushing boundaries very very soon.

FairPhyllis · 11/06/2014 14:08

What Ehric said.

Abusers often dangle 'I'll get help with my anger' as a tactic to keep you in the relationship, knowing that as they don't actually have an anger problem they are not actually going to have to make any sacrifices.

Anger management is for people who can't control themselves in any situation, not for people who target aggression at one specific person (usually a partner) as a means of control.

He would need to do a domestic abuser program, and the success rate of those is pretty low anyway.

Have you talked to anyone in RL about this yet? Please, please tell a friend or a family member about this. I'm sure they wouldn't want you to be going through this alone.

mistlethrush · 11/06/2014 14:16

From all I have read about other peoples' situations on MN, he is currently feeling that he is losing control of you so will do absolutely anything to get you back where he can keep you 'safely' to himself. You ringing the DV helpline and staying with your friend was a really clear indication of that. So, coming out with all these excuses is a good way of getting you 'hooked' back in again. He's just having to go one stage further than he took it last time to get you back in-line. Do not marry this man until he has proved that he does all of these things and can act properly and not behave like this.

It could be that, rather than this, he is being completely honest and truthful with you. A wedding is a stressful thing - it would be much better to postpone that until he has got himself sorted out.

Therefore, even if we're all reading the wrong thing into his behaviour and he really does want to change, you need to at least postpone the date of your wedding. I would try to put it back a year at least - I know this sounds an age, but it will give you the same season etc next year, and will also give plenty of time for you to find out whether he really does want to change or is just stringing you along.

whataremyoptionsnow · 11/06/2014 14:16

Sapphire, you are doing so well. I have now read is all the way through and can see so much of myself in you. I too hate the idea of throwing the good stuff away. I have dreams of how much better our life could be... If only...
But if only won't ever come. He's saying the right things now because he's scared just the same way my partner is doing the right things. And I keep thinking it would be ultra mean to leave now. But so many people have mentioned co-dependancy and enabling and this is what the relationship has become. For you and for me. I've said to my partner many times that we are both making each other worse and I believe that, but 4 months later I'm falling for all the good stuff and planning our future together again. Knowing this. I'm scared stiff of actually jumping, but as stinking Bishop said I am also scared stiff every morning when I wake up. This isn't a life and your post has been a wake up call to me too and I'm sure it has to you. Please heed the advice of everyone here and get out while it's still relatively easy. Once you're married with kids it becomes a whole other ballgame. And believe me seeing your children petrified at their own parent's behaviour is not something you will EVER forget. Or forgive yourself for exposing them to.
Please leave him. Please put yourself first.

Sillylass79 · 11/06/2014 14:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.