"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's almost May 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Congratulations mommy glad it went of without a hitch

No phonecalls/text of ils so far today, lets hope things stay that way!
Dh has been a bit off since mil tried the landline the other day, think the guilt is getting to him again. If only the phone was in my name I would change it. He doesn't want to change it but I think it would solve all this agro and fear every time the phone rings.

squidge there's a lot there. Your post about your brother was especially sad, though I am certain you are right, this does happen more than people realise and not necessarily from evil intentions, not at 12.

The situation now though is more immediate. Im certain that you could benefit from skilled therapy with someone you click with, not only for the events with your brother but for the blinding strong FOG (fear, obligation guilt) you live with now. But the practical decisions are also a really good way to solve the serious stressfulness now.

For the moment is it possible to quietly make less effort to contact her? Im not saying cut out the contact altogether, certainly not at this stage, but to quietly ring / mail / see her less unless -she- arranges it? She may say she misses the children but actual genuine love is shown by action backing up words and .... well, if you step back you can see how it is.

I have to say that your sons are old enough to know their own minds and you have to respect their wishes and decisions. If they do not want to go, then that is their decision.

Hi Squidge and welcome! That all sounds very difficult to deal with. Can you, like Meerka says reduce contact without saying why...just being less available for a bit and sort out some therapy?
I did the quiz too and would say my mother has done all of the 21 at some point or another.
Saw her this morning and it was shit and put a right downer on my already not brilliant day.

I have lurked on and off for a long time, and have been advised to come here from a previous thread about my families behaviour (nced since then).

There's a lot of background which I won't go into just now, but I just needed to vent and ask people their opinions on this.

My father is argumentative, cantankerous and generally bad tempered. We all know this, and try to live with it. But my sister and I deal with it differently to each other.

Recently I have taken part in a radio series to talk about my work. The first part was on last week. The day after it aired, DF called me up to berate me that I had "only been on for 2 minutes", while another contributor was on for "ages". I said it didn't matter, it's just the beginning of the series etc, but DF carried on and on at me saying "Well I had called everyone and told them to listen, and YOU were hardly on it!". As if it was my fault. He was quite aggressive and accusatory.

I got a bit impatient - I was just leaving for work while he called, and during the middle of the phonecall, he started an argument with my mother which lasted a few minutes, with me listening at the end of the line. So eventually I was sarcastic with him and said "do you understand the concept of a series? It means there are 8 parts to it, it doesn't mean that my bit would have all been in the first episode"

A few days later, I told my sister about the incident, and she already knew. DF had told her I was "horrible" to him, and apparently it had put him in such a terrible mood that he was nasty to my DM and sister for the rest of the day.

DSis told me I shouldn't speak to him like that. I said he called me up to berate me, and was acting like a child, so I spoke to him like a child. (Incidentally my 7 year old nephew asked me the same question - but he is a child so it was normal for him to not understand why I wasn't the full focus of the first episode).

My DSis said "It doesn't matter what he said to you - he's your Father and you should respect him. You should never talk down to him no matter what".

Please can people here tell me whether that is true?

Was I unreasonable to be sarcastic and argue back with him, given his behaviour? I completely disagree that just because he's my father, I should never answer back to him. If he's behaving unreasonably, or is nasty, then he bloody well doesn't deserve my respect. If he acts like a child, I will speak to him like one.

There is a long history of this kind of behaviour. He has ground me down throughout my childhood with his bad moods and unreasonable behaviour.

The other thing is that my sister said that because I had been horrible with him, I was responsible for him taking it out on everyone else for the rest of the day. She said I should have known he would do this, and so I should have thought about them before answering back to him.

Once again - can people tell me whether this is reasonable?

I don't think I am responsible for how my DF treats everyone else. He was blatantly already in a bad mood when he called me, and while I'm sure his conversation with me didn't help - I could not have anticipated that he would be nasty to everyone else for the rest of the day. And even if I had, does that mean I should have just "put up and shut up" and taken his berating for the sake of everyone else?

Finally, I was sad to see my Dad being nasty to my 7 year old DN the other day too. DN had changed a setting on the TV with the remote accidentally, and DF shouted and ranted at him for it. While DF was then fiddling with the remote, he actually made it worse - and blamed DN for that too, even though DF had the remote in his hands. I called him out on it, told him that what just happened on the tv happened while DF was pressing the buttons, but he denied it. The look on my poor DN's face brought back a thousand bad memories for me, as he just sat there and took the telling off for something he wasn't responsible for. He's bloody 7 for god's sake, so what if he pressed the wrong button?

One thing my sister always says when I complain about DF's nastiness is "Well you probably said something to provoke him. It's your fault he's nasty". So I told her about Df's outburst at DN (her son) and asked whether I was responsible for that too? She said "Well DN probably was fiddling with the remote and deserved it".... Victim blaming a small child, and around the cycle goes.

It just makes me so frustrated, angry and sad. Can anyone tell me whether I'm normal before I go mad?

Hi Snowcoveredhills,

welcome

Re these parts of your comments:-
"My DSis said "It doesn't matter what he said to you - he's your Father and you should respect him. You should never talk down to him no matter what".

Please can people here tell me whether that is true?

No it is not true but your sister believes that for her own reasons. She wants likely to remain favoured by him. Also never forget either that respect runs two ways.

"Was I unreasonable to be sarcastic and argue back with him, given his behaviour?

No but arguing back with him just gives him further ammo.

"I completely disagree that just because he's my father, I should never answer back to him. If he's behaving unreasonably, or is nasty, then he bloody well doesn't deserve my respect. If he acts like a child, I will speak to him like one".

Speaking to him like a child will not work because he is not a child. You need instead to completely disengage on all levels from him. Bullying people like your dad are just that; refuse to engage at all and on any level. If you do not engage at all you do not take part in this ongoing game of dysfunction. You do not have to keep playing the game; it is easier to actually opt out from your dysfunctional birth family unit. They may well not make it as all easy for you to disengage; they like you in the role they assigned for you.

Re this:-
"The other thing is that my sister said that because I had been horrible with him, I was responsible for him taking it out on everyone else for the rest of the day. She said I should have known he would do this, and so I should have thought about them before answering back to him.

Once again - can people tell me whether this is reasonable?"

Your sister is again being unreasonable here. Your dad would likely argue with himself in an empty room. We are only responsible for our own actions; not other people's. Its your dad's fault he exploded in temper and he made a choice to act as he did. You did not cause him to act in the ways he does either.

I feel sorry for your nephew; he is certainly having a hard time at the hands of his rotten grandfather and his mother is letting that happen to him. The emotional damage to him is incalculable actually.

Honestly I would seriously consider going no contact with them because these people will never ever see your point of view. They're just really interested in keeping their own familial dysfunction going.

My hearty congratulations to you re your recent getting married Mommybird

Your sister is fallign into the roll of enabler of your father's scary temper and nastiness. She is choosing to step carefully around him and to blame anybody (including her poor 7 year old son) except the man who is actually responsible.

sure, people affect each other but in the end you're the only one responsible for your OWN behaviour, once adult.

It is not sensible or healthy to tiptoe around someone's temper and by standing up to him, you are doing the right thing. If she cannot see this, she has either lost her way into the path of appeasement at -any- cost or she is deliberately choosing that path.

As adults, he shoudl treat you with respect and you should treat him with respect - adult to adult. He's not doing that. At all. Should you do it even if he isnt? well that's a difficult one. What I woudl suggest in that circumstance next time is making it clear you have got to go to work, that you cannot wait and that you will speak to him later. Then say goodbye and if you have to, put the phone down. He wont like it, but he is not the King over you and you have work to go to. A commitment other than him.

If the same sort of conversation arises when you don't have to go, then it's best to stay calm and simply repeat that it wasn't your choice, that you are not responsible for the way the programme is put together. Ad infinitum.

Im afraid that in order to do that, to stay deliberately calm, you will need to take a mental step back from him. Would it be possible to temporarily think of him as an extremely bad mannered stranger for the duration of one of his tempers, and to speak to him as if he was (emotionally) a stranger?

It might also be an idea to consider letting him know a little less about your life. He has NO right to bully you like this. Perhaps give him less ammunition to work with. If it's going to get back to him anyway thru your mum or sister then it'd be back to mentally treating him like a stranger during his tantrums.

I do think you have two problems here; your father and your sister. You are quite right to stand up to him, and I'm afraid she is not right in doormatting to him - and completely unreasonable in expecting other people to be doormats too. The answer is No.

and yes, it is entirely normal to be frustrated, angry and sad in your shoes.

Welcome Snow! No, none of your father's behaviour is reasonable. I totally agree with you about the respect, he doesn't deserve respect if he doesn't treat you with respect. I think perhaps this is a narc trait. My mother once said to me that she had never loved her own mother "but had never treated her with the disrespect you treat me" because I disagreed with her about something and wouldn't back down. I wasn't shouting or being rude I just didn't agree.
Mommybird Congratulations! I'm so pleased they left you alone in the end and that you had a nice day!
I've had a crap day, although it's small fry, really but I'm going to have a little rant...feel free to skip it if you like :)

It started badly as we’re potty training DD. It went really well yday, so thought we’d be OK to pop out with DM. But as soon as we got in to her house DD pooed herself. Gah. Then DS broke the awning on DM’s patio. We went out and she was doing "sadface" and being all quiet and I said I'd get it fixed and pay for it and she was huffing and puffing about when he could come to fix it and sounded annoyed, so i said, was she angry....and well....
Why on earth would I think this and how I am terrible at Reading emotions if that’s what I think and I can hardly know her at all and a whole load about people her whole life had said she looked "a misery" and did I think she was on medication for anger then or what and then some crack about "One thing I learnt from my mother was never tell your children or daughter you can't cope" didn't even understand that one.

Claims she wasn't angry but "can't cope" with the house. I think that's because DS broke the little pulley on the awning and the man hasn't been round to fumigate yet. So I said I thought it was best if we left it there and if she wanted we could just go home. Then get to park and DD wet herself twice and then pooed herself once more and we had to go home as I'd run out of clean pants by then and really had enough. DM doing a fair bit of “sadface” through this as I tried to make small talk. DS spent most of the time winding DD up and needing to be told off and I just feel super judged by her when they are like that, whether she’s judging me or not, I feel it.

DD much better all afternoon with no more accidents until tea time when she had diarrheoa, which means she can’t go to nursery tmrw and we’re too far into PT to stop, but obviously PT with the runs is not to be looked forward to. I have work I need to do tmrw and DH has to do the food shop, so it’ll be potty and a runny bum at home while I try to work from home. ARGH. And I have bronchitis and my chest hurts when I breathe. And the Dm thing has overshadowed my whole day and even now I’m wondering if it was partly me at fault.

ost of my dealings with her are fraught. That can't be normal, can it? Just feel I can't ever relax with her, there's always something chugging along in the background...some way I've upset her, some drama she wants to rope me into....

GTB from everything you've written that I've read, she absolutely thrives on drama. And will do anything she can to trigger it.

I wonder, does she somehow need the adrenaline?

You, naturally, are the easiest and best source of it because you're her daughter, the Golden Child who is now breaking free.

If you seriously wonder if a disagreement with her is your fault or hers, ask your brother! Or remember what you wrote right at the top of yoru post: she sees you as treating her with disrespect because you simply disagreed civilly with her.

Dbro says she's mad and she should "grow the fuck up". DH says she's a prat. I am having a cup of tea and trying to turn my brain off a bit. Looking forward to first therapy session on Tuesday.

Thanks to those who replied to me, sorry not to reply to all the other posts, didn't realise the thread would move so fast but glad to have others to talk to much as I wish you didn't all have to be on here...

Had a message on Facebook from a friend of my mum's saying she wants to discuss my mum's birthday party and can I call her. I don't know if she knows I've gone NC so have no idea if she is trying to meddle or just wants to discuss what she says she does. Have panicked and ignored her.

Ignore it Appletini. Welcome to the thread, but sorry you have to be here. It's a fast moving thread sometimes, but feel free to waffle away as much as you need about anything, nothing's unimportant here.

dont know what thread is being used. just letting those i was talking to know that im still hanging in there.

shy I'm glad you posted, it's good to hear you are hanging on. Are you able and safe to post any details, if you want to ofc? you sound in such a really impossible situation

Congrats on your wedding Mommybird.

I feel like I've been suffocating with grief lately - which sounds so ridiculously self-indulgent written down. It's been a relief to go NC but it also means all my actual feelings have come to the surface.

My therapist told me I had a shit start in life. I was kind of hoping I was wrong and just overreacting.

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to say thank you for allowing me the space to vent, and for taking the time to post your responses. My situation isn't anywhere near as bad as a lot of people's so it feels petty getting upset about it. Thank you for making me feel welcome.

I'll have a read through the thread as soon as I can and hopefully offer some more constructive support for others.

Hi Everyone
I have only just found this thread and am very happy that I am not alone.
Just briefly to begin with:

I'm in my mid 40's, married with 3 teenage/grown children.
NC for with mother for 5 years.
Horrible bullying and emotionally abusive mother - weak enabling stepfather who she treats dreadfully.
Golden child very much younger sister.

She would fly into awful rages , shouting , hitting etc.
When she had calmed down after whacking and going mad she expected me to be happy and smiling and act as if nothing had happened. If I didn't - I was called sullen.

Me - 10 years old being driven by her to school after an argument. As she drops me off she says " aren't you going to kiss me ". I lean over and she slaps me as hard as she can across the face.

Same age - she would yell at me to clean my room. I would do it , she would come up the stairs, into my room and throw everything in my room all over the place then tell me to clear it up again. She would do this about another 3 times.

Reading a line in a book in a shop and seeing the word " shit". I asked her if there was another meaning for it as I was shocked to see it written in a book and her dragging me to the bathroom when we got home and shoving soap into my mouth.

Lots of other very similar things - will try and elaborate another time including one time when I was married and had a young child telling me that " I will smash your fucking head into the wall" in front of my young child for a minor disagreement. This was the first time in my life I ever tried to stand up to her - too scared before this.

She denies or tries to minimalise it happening
I'm a liar
I was a difficult child
Blamed her own upbringing
Blamed the fact she was young.

Has never , ever apologised for what she did to me. Has shown very little interest in her grandchildren
I have had no contact for about 5 years but still feel so angry and sad at the same time

Thanks all for listening.

Forgot to add to the above.

She was always light and sweetness to everyone else who met her.
It seemed that only me and my weak , downtrodden stepfather ever saw her real side.

Hi all,

I'm sorry for being away for such a while and then coming back just to ask something, I feel like such a user and quite ashamed of myself for it. Though I never really feel helpful when I'm here anyway. With that being said, does anyone mind if I ask a question?
How do you deal with the hate and bitterness from all of the incidents with your toxic relative? I can't stop thinking about MIL and all the things she's said and done. This is a wider issue, I can't stop thinking about things my own family have said and done either. It is getting to the point where it's becoming obsessive. I wake up sometimes and I'm instantly thinking about it, I get up in the morning and I'm dwelling on it, turning over every detail in my head. I think about it throughout the day. It's in my head as I go to bed at night. I know it's unhealthy. I know it will make me worse, more unhappy, is going to effect my kid. I feel like such a bitter and angry person, because I am. I don't want to be like this.
Has anyone else had this? What did you do? Please don't say counselling - I won't get any on the NHS and we can't afford private.

Good2Better, you walked right into that trap didn't you? (((HUG)))

I think the PT visit was probably where it all started to go wrong tbh... :)

You asking her if she was angry was the red rag to the Torro and all that.

If she says anything about not coping again, say to her that she needs to stop moaning and do something about it. she needs to go home to the UK.

Don't ask anything of her again and go minimal contact if you can, step back and if she questions it tell her you are tired of her drama and if she can't cope, that's down to her.

You really do need to detach. I know that's hard, but it's the only way. When she adopts sadface, gather the kids, and go home, shrug it all off and leave her to it.

dizzy bitterness is soemthing I've struggled with too, a lot in the past, much less so now.

What helped me was a couple of things. One was looking at old people and seeing hte difference between people who'd sometimes had hard lives but were still flexible and openminded, and others who'd had hard lives and were notably bitter and often its friend, self pity, too. Which path did I want to follow?

I didnt like the bitter people so over some years, mostly they were very unattractive, so I tried consciously to develop other thought patterns. The old chestnuts of appreciating what I -did- have ... sometimes then it seemed very thin, but I kept trying. Also, allowing myself to actually be bloody furious at times or else very sad. Allowing those direct emotions their time seemed to actually help me adjust and slowly feel less bitter.

The other thing was some intense therapy (sorry) where I was with other people who'd had as difficult start as I had, usually in a different way but still, they understood like no one else from a settled background can. Feeling less alone really helped, even though no one can take the pain away.

Sorry, no easy answers, mainly down to you deciding that no, it's NOT fair what's happened, it really isn't, but you got to live on.

I suppose having a good husband and one-and-a-bump kids gives me a lot to be positive about too. Right now things are really not easy and the bad, broken family stuff is haunting me hard, but I also look at the good stuff. I really, really, really, really dont want to become like my biological mother, who was a stinking morass of anger and self pity among other things, I don't want to do that to my kid(s). But the relationship with my husband came after I'd (more or less) laid the bitterness on one side.

Hope that helps a bit ... it's not easy when life's been tough, not to give in sometimes.

insul she sounds horrific :( I guess she is a great deal nicer to your younger sister? Is she still at home? your poor stepfather too :s were you ever able to talk to him?

it sounds like going NC must have been difficult but such a relief. And very good for your children, a poisonous grandmother is something anyone can do without.

I hope you can talk to your husband ... what does he think of her?

Give yourself space and time to be angry at her. And well, proud that at last, after all that conditioning, you could stand up to her. Some people would still have crumbled...

Can I please dip my toe in?

I am NC with my mum. Its the second period of in my adult life and this time has lasted since my wedding, over 2 years ago.

Reading some of these threads has made me question whether she really is toxic/narc etc or if I am hanging on to the past / going mad.

She used to hit me when I was younger. Smacking was normal in our house but there were times when I was older that my dad got involved and told her she was taking it too far. Then they would argue.

She left my dad and took my brother with her (7 years younger than me) - she never once asked me to go with her. I stayed with dad. I'm very close to him now, he brought me up from the age of 15 and made me the adult I am now.

We had an on/off relationship throughout my teens and up to the age of 21 when we had a huge row about her trying to worm her way back in with my dad after breaking up with the man she left him for.

I went NC with her at 22. We got back in touch 2 years later when I told her I was getting married. The lack of emotion, or even really, response when we told her should have sent me running. But I hung on, hoping for the mother/daughter relationship I'd always wanted, but still left feeling unhappy, stressed, angry and totally drained whenever I saw her. She was needy and demanding.

She called me evil for not inviting her friend to my wedding, who I hadn't seen for years. Apparently she wanted her there for moral support.

We argued at the wedding because she wanted a photo with my dad and I didn't.

We argued after the wedding on the phone when she asked me if I'd sent thank you cards. It was 7 weeks since the wedding. We'd been on honeymoon for 3 of those weeks, back to work and were waiting for the thank you cards to be printed (we used a wedding pic). When I told her it was none of her business, she told me I was up my own arse and thought I was so fucking special. I put the phone down on her and never picked it up to call her again.

I got texts, asking me to 'please come back' and also one saying 'you must have a lot of anger and a vivid imagination' as if I was angry over nothing.

I fell pregnant in January 2013, and my dad took me to my mums with DH so we could tell her. Again, lack of emotion or response. 'Oh, ok' was pretty much it.

Sadly, 3 weeks later I miscarried. I text her to tell her. She asked if I wanted her to come over. I said no thanks.

I had an ERPC, told her when the surgery was and text her on the day to let her know I was out. I also text her the following week on her birthday to say happy birthday and let her know I was back at work. Nothing.

Its not me is it? She's not behaving like a mum is she?

I've had 2 more miscarriages since then and in my grief addled mind I cant help wondering if I'm being punished for being a terrible daughter. Stupid I know, but its on my mind. Please help me put this into perspective.

((((((((((((((SeaSaltMill))))))))))))))))

No SeaSaltMill it is not you, its her.

In a family situation where you have a Narcissistic Mother, you also need to have an Enabling Father. A man who stands up to his wife will not be tolerated for long, or will not find his life tolerable for long, and will either leave or be kicked out. She left him. Narcissists simply don't have healthy and functioning relationships, and so there is either no relationship, or a dysfunctional and enabling one.

And you are right, she is not and infact never has behaved like an emotionally healthy and well adjusted adult because she is not. She is anything but emotionally healthy and it is NOT your fault she is the way she is. You did not make her that way and NO you are not a terrible daughter. You just wanted what any child wants with regards to their mother and father be it daughter or son; a healthy and mutually respectful and non abusive relationship with them.

(Do you know what her own childhood was like; that often gives clues. Pound to a penny her own childhood was pretty much dysfunctional and abusive from the get go as well. Its no excuse or justification but the roots of her dysfunction do not and have never started with you).

BTW do you have any sort of relationship with your brother these days or has he completely sided with his mother?.

Why did your Dad take you to your mother's back in January 2013?. Did you request this?. In hindsight (and that is a wonderful thing granted) that was never a good idea given her past behaviours. I ask also as he knew and knows all too well what she is like; why did he allow you to be subjected to her?.

You have done extremely well to maintain no contact. Remain so and do not go back to her ever again. It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

And NO you are NOT being punished for being a terrible daughter. I was wondering if you've ever talked to the Miscarriage Association to date as they could well help support you as well re your miscarriages. You could I think also do with their support. Their website is www.miscarriageassociation.org.uk and they also have a helpline, their number is 01924 200799 (mon-fri 9am-4pm).

I sincerely hope your DH has and remains supportive to you.

Be kind to yourself, you need time and space.