Would you cut your mother out of your life? - long, sorry

[Pages]

It sounds really harsh but she has upset me so much and I just don't want her around to hurt me anymore.

A year ago she told me my SIL found it difficult to be around my child who has special needs. It hurt me really badly at the time but I didn't say anything because my brother and SIL are not the most approachable people. In the end I told my brother about it in a row which wasn't the best of times and I apologised for that. I also rang my mum and apologised if I'd got her into trouble (although really it needed to come out into the open and be dealt with).

My mum then completely astounded me by denying telling me any such thing and she, my brother and my SIL have ganged up on me, called me a poisonous liar and my SIL has told me she never wants to see me again (no great loss there actually, I am pretty sure she is largely responsible for my mum's reaction).

My mum subsequently some weeks later asked me if we could put it behind us. I have told her not until she has apologised and accepted responsibility for what she has done. She refuses to do so (she has never been good at apologising, always has to be right) and whilst telling me to my face that she wants to move on I have found out that she is telling other people in the family that I have done a good job of splitting the family up. It is true my older brother has supported me but only because he knows I am not a liar and my mum has always treated him as an outsider in the family and pitted the rest of us against him.

She is really a very manipulative person. I realise that now. But she is very loving if you agree with her. I have liked to think we have had a really close relationship till now - I used to ring her several times a week and talk to her about almost anything - but the reality is that there is a price to pay for that. Whenever there have been disagreements between us she has always blamed me or DH and I have accepted that to keep things running smoothly between us.

I have been aware for some time that she gossips about me to others in the family, mainly because she gossips about all of them to me and criticises and badmouths them, the way they bring up their children, etc. I used to think stupidly at one time that I was her loyal confidante and then realised with a shock that she was talking just as much about me too.

I really feel that I have so many friends and people who I trust and who really seem to care about me in my life, including DH's family (MIL I think loves me more than my own mum does, she is so sweet), why have people around who don't support me and who I am? Certainly there is no subtext with DH's family - what you see is what you get with all of them and I prefer to have friends around me like that too.

I have never stood up to my mum like this before. My older brother always has and that is why he has been badmouthed and ostracised all his life. My little brother (who always agrees with everything my mum says, worryingly so) even told DH some time ago that he doesn't care for my older brother - but he has never got to know him. My older brother is a really nice person but he has his own thoughts and opinions.

I actually feel hugely liberated by what's happened, like I can be free to be who I am now without the shadow of pleasing my mum hanging over me. I will never stop her seeing her grandchildren but don't want to have a close relationship with her anymore. And yet a part of me tells me this is wrong because we have always been close.

By the way, I have tried talking to her over and over and have put my side across numerous times but she keeps side-stepping the issue and not responding to it, says there is no point in discussing it, we both feel betrayed and that's that. And recently she has implied this must be about more than the immediate incident. It isn't! I just don't like being called a liar and blamed for all of this.

Does anyone think I am overreacting about all of this and should just let it go and get on with my mum? Would you feel as upset as I do?

I don't want to speak for Greeny, but there are loads of us here who love and support her Pages, and I hope I am right in saying that she is doing ok and trying to concentrate on her ds's birthday preparations now

Pages: my mother was and is of the 'I'm your mother, so I own you and you owe me forever' school of thought. My parents cut me out of their lives for refusing to leave dh. We recently met again for the first time in 6 years and my mother is still bitter and still punishing me for having made my own decisions in life. I am trying to rebuild a relationship for the sake of ds and my dad (the initiative was mine - my mother has shown remarkably little interest in ds ) but I am very clear in my mind what I will tolerate from her and what I will not. Being someone's mother does not give unlimited rights to hurt, upset and manipulate and expect there to be no consequences - but I thought it did, for a long time. Saying 'enough' is an incredibly difficult thing to do, particularly with people around you insinuating you are ungrateful and saying 'but she's family, after all' - my parents tried that; they said 'we're family, who else do you have?'

zookeeper, I'm speechless. You clearly have no idea of the turmoil GS went though over all this.

GREENSLEEVES:: I have been in turmoil over my mothers behaviour for as long as I can remember.
I have felt guilt at my feelings of her but after reading of your problems with your mum is like reading my own experiences. I am so releived to realise Im not alone.
I will not go into detail now but I have one bit of advice I feel i must give you now.
Dont let her have any influence over your children, if you feel that will meean not letting them be subjected to her then so be it.
My daughter is 17 and my mum has always took her side and now due to circumstances that have developed Im so frustrated that I let my twisted mother inside her head. Its a horrendous thing to realise your mother is the bitch from hell , when she realises she cant get at you on a personal level she will use your children. Trust me you have made the right descion and I hope you stick to it. My head is too screwed up to write down my personal experience at the mo but thankyou for helping me see its not just me.xx

To the two ladies below who have no idea what it is like to have an abusive and toxic mother. Allow me to give you some insight

I spent years under my mothers thumb until last year when I was getting married and it all came to a head. She was emotionally and physically abusive as far back as I can remember and well on into my teens, and I was so downtrodden I DIDNT EVEN REALISE that my chronic depression it may have been connected to the way she treated me!!! I always thought that if I left home, I would be rid of her influence, but it permeated every aspect of my life, including my relationships with men.

I used to have a firm belief that we should all forgive our parents for their faults, because nobodys perfect. My mother understood that I have a deep integrity with regards to this, and guess what? She used my integrity against me, knowing that NO MATTER what she did, I would always forgive her. She used that to threaten, bully and manipulate me. I was cutting myself in secret by the age of 11 because it was the only way I could feel a sense of release from her. Being "hunted" as another poster mentioned is a very good way to describe how it feels.

Well anyway, I was getting married last year and she started threatening not to come to the wedding. First she was coming, then she wasnt. I was honestly a nervous wreck because my fiances family flying in from abroad and I just wanted it to be a happy occasion. But she sincerely takes pleasure in making others miserable. Its as though she cant stand to see happiness in others. I would physically shake after a phone call because I was scared of her (irrational I know, but in my mind I was still the little girl who was physically weaker than her). Then suddenly something snapped in me. I realised that all these years (I am 25 now) I had been putting so much energy and effort into appeasing her behaviour that I hadnt been able to develop emotionally and become the strong independant person that I always envisaged I could be. Literally, she had been sucking me dry- sucking out all the goodness and energy to keep me low and downtrodden so I couldn`t move on in my life and I would somehow continue to be dependant on her approval.

Well, I called her bluff. At the risk of losing my 4 brothers to her backstabbing talk (my father is so scared of her, he has willingly took her side all my life) I decided the risk was worth it, and shocked her by defying her and I got married anyway. This was last year, and I have cut contact with her, and I have moved on in ways I never imagined I could have. I have become a much calmer and confident person. My self esteem is improving all the time. I am due in a few weeks with my first child, and the fact I have accepted that her behaviour is NOT normal, means that I am aware of her toxicity and can attempt to rewrite the script by not treating my child in the same way. If I was to continue to blindly forgive her like I have in the past, I may well make the same dreadful mistakes she has made, and the thought of doing that to my children is abhorrent to me.

I felt a gut instinct to protect my family, and keeping her away from me was the way I could do that. My brothers, as it turns out, have been very loyal to me, and my relationship with them is still very good. I am lucky, as I have heard that many people lose their siblings if they stand up to a bullying mother/father.

It has been and INCREDIBLY hard decision to cut her out of my life, and one that I live with every day. I long for her to wake up as a good and loving person one day, take me in her arms, and be my "mum". But I have heard that she is slipping into alcoholism, so the likelihood of her ever changing or the toxicity stopping is slim to none.

You are VERY lucky to have loving mothers. That is a dream I have for my children- that they will feel secure and loved in our home. DO NOT criticise people for cutting their mothers out of their lives unless you have been there yourself.

Sorry for hikacking the thread, Pages. Ultimately its up to you what you decide. But I want you to know that if you weigh up all the options and you realise that having your mother out of your life is best for you (as incredibly painful as that may be) then you dont need to feel guilty. I felt like Id had an epiphany when I realised its OKAY to not forgive your parents. Especially when they have done things to you that you KNOW you could never do to your children. I`m sure our mothers have their own problems and their own issues, and possibly suffered at the hands of their mothers/fathers, but pretending they are not like that is like saying their behaviour is okay. And its not.

Re the original question in the thread title...

Yes I would and have, except for 2 or 3 carefully orchestrated visits a year lasting 2 hours max and that always have immediate get out strategies (These are so she can see her grandson, but she never has unsupervised access) and with both parents always present.

I feel no quilt about this, and I no longer want anything from my mother. It transformed my life discovering that I did not have to care what she did or didn't do as a mother.

Some of your children may not forgive you in the future for being prevented from having a relationship with their grandparents.

Don't normally do this but thought I would add my tuppence worth for the sake of the discussion (!). I can see this from both sides of the coin as it were - I cut my own mother (along with the rest of my family) out of my life 6 years ago - long story but they asked me to choose between them and my husband. After two years of no contact, we slowly started to rebuild our relationship. My mother has a new found respect for me - she knows I won't give into bullying and emotional blackmail. In fact she tried it when she stayed with me after DD was born and said she would leave if her children (my brothers and sister who I still don't get on with) weren't welcome in my house. So I said ok then and she left! She was fine after that!! We get on fine now - actually pretty well and we both know how far we can push it.

On the other hand, my DH's mother who lived with us for some time and had complete control over my husband (no time to explain - that's a whole new thread!) finally crossed the line with my DH three years ago. During the time she lived with us, she was violent and generally bonkers eventually conspiring with his two sisters to have DH arrested by the police for all manner of crimes. Luckily they didn't believe them but when that didn't work she told a social worker we were beating and starving her and left our home, went to the police station and accused DH of molesting young girls in the neighbourhood (Social worker told us afterwards). He didn't speak to her for a while but now talks to her on the phone every couple of weeks. I've asked him not to mention that we have a DD because I think she would contact SS to do something dreadful.

Phew - I'm sorry if it feels like I've hijacked this thread, I just wanted to put across that every situation merits an individual decision and it's really up to Pages (and Greensleeves) how they wish to conduct their relationships. If they feel it's worth a try to build bridges then that's their call. It worked for me to have a break (i.e. no contact) and then go back and try again. On the other hand, if you feel continuing a relationship will endanger you or your child, it's no one's right to judge the level of that danger for you and I'm surprised some posters on here have done that. I'm sure they meant well - maybe they're trying to play devil's advocate.

I guess my advice is to take a step back, take a deep breath and maybe cease contact for a while. It might be painful for your mother but if she loves you enough she'll get past it like mine did. Sadly, my brothers and sister didn't and I'm still effectively estranged but I still think it's a risk worth taking even though I miss them every day.

ps sorry for the marathon post!!!

I think in Greensleeves and Pages circumstances, thats a perfectly acceptable risk to take Cam.

Far less of a risk than the child not forgiving the parent for being exposed to abuse should a relationship be encouraged IMO.

How on earth can you judge someone else Cam until you have stood in their shoes? How can you make such a sweeping statement as that? We as mothers have the absolute right to do what we honestly believe is the right thing for our children. Greensleaves is the one who has experienced her own mother's destructive behaviour and she has made a decision to the best of her ability based on what to do for the best. It is not a decision she took lightly hence her comments about her sadness whilst making her little boys birthday cake, which I found unbelievably touching.

You have no right to be so judgemental and you can wash it all away with "its an internet forum we can say what we like that's life" if you like, but there is such a thing as being an insensitive and judgemental idiot. You and zookeeper are both.

Cashncarry, good illustration of short term/long term.

No need to be so aggressive just because you don't agree with my generalisations (not judgements) bosscat.

And, by the way, I am a separate person from Zookeeper, I'm finding it strange that when people answer her they mention my name and vice versa.

Pages - Toxic relationships have no good outcome especially if one or more people in that relationship aren?t willing to stop doing the toxic stuff. You can?t control her, but you can control you and your actions/re-actions. If she wishes to engage in negative conversation and poisoning family relationships, take the high road, you don?t have to engage the conversation. Some family members will see her sabotage attempts and eventually see through her. You?ve spent enough time trying to please someone who is not happy regardless of what is done for or to her.

Tell them if they wish to keep any relationship with your Children, they need to contact, DH or someone else and make arrangements. If any subject matter comes up putting your Children in the middle as pawns, you won?t have it. Children don?t belong in the middle of adult issues. This leaves the opportunity up to them to have or continue the relationship and takes the pressure off you. If they don?t communicate, that is their loss.

Will it divide the family? Maybe. But wouldn?t it be better to live and feel some type of freedom than continue to feel imprisoned? Spend some positive time on yourself and with your family. If she and other relatives want a relationship with your Children, great, if not, than that is their loss. Times for games is over.

I tell you this, because I severed ties with my Toxic Family nearly a year ago. I'm won't derail the thread. We offered to keep the door of relationship with our Sons 'open'. They?ve not been in communication with our children except 2 weeks out of nearly 12 mo and that was to use our Sons as pawns. DH & I won?t have it and told them this is an Adult issue and our Sons are not pieces in a game. We'd appreciate them keeping their interest in what the Boys are doing and how they are doing, instead of events our Sons have nothing to do with. They?ve not been in touch since.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you can breath easier in your decision making.

Sorry but this kind of thing always sounds like American psychobabble to me.

Damn, I just typed out a long response and I lost it in a flash of lightning !

I wanted to give Greensleeves - and Pages - a big virtual hug, because what they have done and/or are considering isn't easy and involves a great deal of soul-searching (due in part to society's view of how families should be). I'm sure that anyone who makes a decision like this doesn't do so on the spur of the moment and without very good reason.

I think some who've posted here need to be reminded of the proverb "you can't choose your family". IMHO, that is far more pertinent than the "blood is thicker than water" approach being advocated.

Let's be blunt here ...... none of us exist in a vacuum. Everyone is related to someone, and unfortunately, that means that some (quite a few) people will inevitably be related to very nasty people, who are extremely upsetting and who are a risk to your children. Being a "mum" or a "grandfather" or an "aunt" or "cousin", or whatever, does not magically exclude someone from being a menace and it's utterly naiive to suggest that "close" family relationships should be maintained at all costs.

Yes, we'd all like to be living "happily ever after" within a close family but for many people that's simply never going to happen without serious repercussions. Why on earth would anyone want to maintain a "pseudo" relationship which would continue to damage them or their children - almost as if to "keep up appearances" to society at large - when instead, you and your children could spend your time engaging in honest, respectful, loving and mutually supportive relationships with genuine people who aren't out to cause harm ?

What I don't understand is why Greensleeves has been so roundly criticised here ( ... and I don't specifically remember her story - I don't have to). All responsible parents continually "screen" and "filter" the other people their children have access to and socialise with, making decisions as and when required if things feel wrong ...... why is this so awful if that person happens to be a blood relative ? ...... what does Greensleeves' decision matter to any of us here at the end of the day - we're not living her life.

Cam, have you seriously never come across a person who makes your life a misery, and whom you would rather never see again?

Even someone in a peripheral relationship (for example a colleague) can make you feel nervous, sick, out of control - make you dread what will happen the next time you see them.

Now imagine what it's like when this person is a much more intimate part of your life: has a social licence to contact you and question every aspect of your life, every decision you make; knows exactly how to bully, and belittle you, and to alienate many other people who have known you since you were tiny. And social convention insists that you owe this person loyalty, and understanding.

Well, I'm sorry, but a desire to free yourself from such torment does not fall into the category of 'psychobable' to me. This is not about self-actualisation, but survival. And the desire to protect your children from going through the same sounds eminently rational, under the circumstances.

Hi Pages.Haven't read all the posts but agree with lots of what DVX has said.It can take a long time to reach the stage you are at and the guilt thing can be a prob.
I have recently cut my 'mothe'out of my life.I am 37 and have tried very hard to be civil etc[obviously i am not perfect]but my mother is a completely venomous person.I do not want her tainting my ds with her poisonous outbursts,she has no self control and i don't trust her.My dp has had enough too.She does not enhance my life in any way whatsoever and i feel a HUGE relief that i have done this.You have to be ready and feel you cannot try any harder than you have and believe me you sound like you are there!
Good Luck with your choice.I will read the other posts now

Well, all i can say is, how fortunate for you not to know the difference between real life and psychobabble.

Wish i hadn;t read it all now Anyway there have been many psitive,constructive posts on here for you Pages.
Hope you are ok Greensleeves.

I do hear what you're saying but I think I'm finding it hard to believe that all these mothers appear to have no redeeming features.

They may have redeeming features but still not enough to have a relationship with them! My mother has nice curtains!

What about compromise?

I'd like to hear the mothers' sides of these stories

Message withdrawn

Depends what aspect of compromise you mean Cam? I believe that Greensleeves would be compromising her children by ensuring they had a relationship with her Mother.

It doesnt really matter what other redeeming features a parent has if you simply cannot trust them not to abuse your children. I fail to see your logic here.