Would you cut your mother out of your life? - long, sorry

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It sounds really harsh but she has upset me so much and I just don't want her around to hurt me anymore.

A year ago she told me my SIL found it difficult to be around my child who has special needs. It hurt me really badly at the time but I didn't say anything because my brother and SIL are not the most approachable people. In the end I told my brother about it in a row which wasn't the best of times and I apologised for that. I also rang my mum and apologised if I'd got her into trouble (although really it needed to come out into the open and be dealt with).

My mum then completely astounded me by denying telling me any such thing and she, my brother and my SIL have ganged up on me, called me a poisonous liar and my SIL has told me she never wants to see me again (no great loss there actually, I am pretty sure she is largely responsible for my mum's reaction).

My mum subsequently some weeks later asked me if we could put it behind us. I have told her not until she has apologised and accepted responsibility for what she has done. She refuses to do so (she has never been good at apologising, always has to be right) and whilst telling me to my face that she wants to move on I have found out that she is telling other people in the family that I have done a good job of splitting the family up. It is true my older brother has supported me but only because he knows I am not a liar and my mum has always treated him as an outsider in the family and pitted the rest of us against him.

She is really a very manipulative person. I realise that now. But she is very loving if you agree with her. I have liked to think we have had a really close relationship till now - I used to ring her several times a week and talk to her about almost anything - but the reality is that there is a price to pay for that. Whenever there have been disagreements between us she has always blamed me or DH and I have accepted that to keep things running smoothly between us.

I have been aware for some time that she gossips about me to others in the family, mainly because she gossips about all of them to me and criticises and badmouths them, the way they bring up their children, etc. I used to think stupidly at one time that I was her loyal confidante and then realised with a shock that she was talking just as much about me too.

I really feel that I have so many friends and people who I trust and who really seem to care about me in my life, including DH's family (MIL I think loves me more than my own mum does, she is so sweet), why have people around who don't support me and who I am? Certainly there is no subtext with DH's family - what you see is what you get with all of them and I prefer to have friends around me like that too.

I have never stood up to my mum like this before. My older brother always has and that is why he has been badmouthed and ostracised all his life. My little brother (who always agrees with everything my mum says, worryingly so) even told DH some time ago that he doesn't care for my older brother - but he has never got to know him. My older brother is a really nice person but he has his own thoughts and opinions.

I actually feel hugely liberated by what's happened, like I can be free to be who I am now without the shadow of pleasing my mum hanging over me. I will never stop her seeing her grandchildren but don't want to have a close relationship with her anymore. And yet a part of me tells me this is wrong because we have always been close.

By the way, I have tried talking to her over and over and have put my side across numerous times but she keeps side-stepping the issue and not responding to it, says there is no point in discussing it, we both feel betrayed and that's that. And recently she has implied this must be about more than the immediate incident. It isn't! I just don't like being called a liar and blamed for all of this.

Does anyone think I am overreacting about all of this and should just let it go and get on with my mum? Would you feel as upset as I do?

your son didn't choose not to see his granny though - I don't say this lightly, but why should you deprive him of that?

Because she is unbalanced, emotionally (and occasionally physically) violent, cruel, selfish, controlling, unpredictable, devious and there are no reasonable limits to her behaviour, zookeeper. I won't go into detail here because it's too painful for me and not helpful for Pages. But I don't feel I have made the wrong decision in ending her relationship with my children, no, although it hasn't been an easy or pleasant time for any of us. I see it as part of my job as a mother to protect my children from people who will hurt them or cause misery and instability in their lives. I've done that. I don;t think the fact that she is a blood relative necessarily means that my children shouldh ave to put up with the worry, unhappiness and pain that she regularly inflicts, although of course the fact that she is my mother has made it the most difficult and drawn-out decisions I've ever made. Had she been anyone else I would have emigrated, years ago, and changed my name. As it is I am the last in a long line of relatives who have reached the end of a very long and hard road with her and had to call it a day. Paradoxically, it was only my love and protectiveness for my own children, who are becoming old enough now to really suffer when she is having one of her "episodes", that has given me the strength and impetus to finally say "No" to it all. I let her kick me around like a football for years and years. She isn't capable of any other kind of relationship. So no, of course I don't feel I had no right to protect my boys from going through the same. I had every right.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. This isn't a disagreement, or a normal family bust-up. It's much deeper and more destructive than that. And it's up to Pages to determine what's best for her and her children, not you.

And thanks, for the comment about my son being deprived of his granny, when I had just said how I felt about his birthday. Thanks very much for that. You may feel you have the moral high ground here, but you are not a very compassionate person.

Your ignorance is astounding.

hear hear greensleeves

Thanks SpanielEars

now, now, Spanielears, back to work

Greensleeves, I don't wish to hurt you, but I think it is pretty outrageous to deprive your child of his right to know his grandparent, for better or worse. You can insult me as much as you like, get hysterical if you like, but my sympathy lies with your child.

I'm far from hysterical - this has taken years and years, so it's not something I become hysterical about. I do think you're an insensitive and arrogant person though.

My children don't need your sympathy. Yours might, though since you are clearly an intolerant and short-sighted woman who has difficulty empathising with those whose situations fail to mirror your own.

If you would feel happy allowing a relationship to develop between your child and people whom you know to be abusive, dangerous, dysfunctional and cruel, then good luck to you. And to them.

oooooooooooooooooooh!!!!

Actually Greensleeves, if you are intent on trading insults then I would say that you are a drama queen.
At what point will you allow your children to make their own decisions? Or will they be writing similar threads in years to come about their control-freak mother. I suspect as much.

Zookeeper your posts are quite frankly

No, I'm not a particularly controlling parent. I'm sure they'll have other gripes, but I doubt they'll resemble my memories of my own mother. In fact I know they won't.

And as to "at what point will you allow your children to make their own decisions" - well, they do, quite a lot of the time, more so than most I think. But at four and two I think it's appropriate I make the decisions when it comes to protecting them from dangerous/violent/cruel people.

zookeeper - err bitch!!! I think greensleeves is doing the right thing. Her kids can choose to see the witch once they are old enough to defend themselves against her.Right now they are vunerable and it sounds like this woman would be more than capable of causing some grief! By the way - taking greensleeves side and putting you in your place is far more important that doing work! get of your soapbox love!

You do realise that I am a real person, don't you, zookeeper? That's this isn't some debating exercise written expressly for you to sharpen your claws on?

Its not about morality though Greensleeves, I think its about making choices for someone (eg. your ds) else and whether you do have that right in the long term.

Lots of people have very different relationships with their grandchildren than they do with their children, in fact there's a thread on here started by Pamina3 about that very thing.

Calling Zoo arrogant and ignorant says far more about you than about her.

I think though Cam, Greensleaves reaccted to a very patronising first comment from Zookeeper who has been below the belt froom the start

cam and zookeeper - are you memebers of a coven? you sure act like it. Greensleeves - i would go to heavena dn earth to protect my DD and as far as i can see thats all your trying to do. Give her a break the witches of eastwick!

That's a reasonable point, Cam - but had her behaviour not begun to impact my children and do damage that was very visible to me and to h, with no possibility of it ever changing, I would certainly have carried on tolerating it indefinitely. I worked very very hard at it for a long time, for everyone's benefit. I made the decision that it had to end because it was causing harm, real lasting harm, to everyone involved. I believe I did and do have that right.

I don't see how zookeeper can say the things she has about me when she has no idea what sort of person I am, what abuse I have had to tolerate to get to this point or what my mother has put us all though. I think her attitude is arrogant and ignorant.

Hubble bubble, toil and ......did someone mention the Scottish Play?

Never "spoken" to Zoo in my life as far as I know

I am entitled to have an opinion, Greensleeves. You sound quite hysterical and very bitter - not atttractive. I wonder how old your boys will have to be before you permit them to have relationships with people of whom you don't appove? I suppose it would be out of the question to let them make up their own minds? Or will they be writing similar threads in years to come about their own mother?. I suspect so.

I am sorry you appear to take exception to my having an opinion that differs to your own. Go back to sobbing into your cake but as you're so convinced you're right I don't see the need for tears

And surely, if someone's mother had physically abused her, and there was the danger that she would physically abuse her grandchildren, there would be outrage if the grandchildren weren't protected from her? I know this is an extreme case, but I just wanted to point out that not all contact is good and that people have a right, indeed a duty to protect their children under certain circumstances.

Cam and Zookeeper, this really seems to be pressing your buttons. Is there some reason why you feel so strongly about this?

My boys already have relationships with people I don't like personally - family members, friends' partners - you have entirely the wrong idea about me and my style of parenting. My mother and stepfather are the ONLY people I have ever stopped them from seeing. If you had an uncle who had abused you as a child, would you leave your toddler alone with him? I wouldn't. As I sai, I'm not going to be provoked into giving details of what the behaviour entailed, but it certainly is my decision to make that my children won't be exposed to it. When they are older - perhaps eleven or so - if they want to see her I will talk to them about it and we will reach a decision together. I have already been completely frank with ds1 about what has happened, I haven't poisoned him against her but I have explained briefly why we can't see her at the moment. He is free to talk to me about it whenever he wants to, and he does.

And as to me "sobbing into my cake" - that is uinbelievably vindictive. Yes, this interchange with you has upset me - which is clearly what you intended - and cast an additional shadow over ds2's birthday. Thanks for that. But you haven't shaken my view that I have done the right thing.

Zookeeper how far off the mark exactly do you want to be, what have greensleaves childrens relationships with anyone other than her mother got to do with any of this. This is clearly a very difficult and distressing situation to be in, and i can't believe for a second that such a decision is taken lightly. for you to stand and pass such personal judge ment 'much sympathy lies with your children' displays a complete inability to empathise or understand Greensleaves choices, not an attractive quality.

I would like to ask you where you draw the line, are there any circumstances at all in which you would not allow your child to see their grandparent?

having different opinions is what makes mumsnet go round, but you are clearly a vindictive individual, I rarely get involved in disputes on mumsnet but your posts are a disgrace Zookeeper

Greensleeves, I apologise for the sobbing into your cake comment which was vindictive, but I didn't deseve to be insulted for expressing an opinion.

Of course there are circumstances where i would not permit my children to spend time with a grandparent, but I can only think of something very extreme such as sexual abuse. However I think that severing a child's relationship with someone is a very extreme step. It's not much help saying that you'll let the child decide later in life if there's been no relationship up to that point that point. Are yours allowed to send her letters/cards or keep some sort of relationship going until they can decide?

If you're just going to shower me with insults then don't bother answering