Is this email abusive/ am I abusive?

[mayapapaya]

I am a regular poster but have changed my name for this. I am at a very difficult place in my marriage for many reasons. Some of the reasons are to do with job and family stress, and are beyond my control at the moment. The primary reason is that my husband thinks I am emotionally abusive.

The latest dispute is about whether this mail below is abusive. A bit of context. He had to unexpectedly travel for work and missed a v important event in DD's life. This is not the first time this has happened. I sent him this email because she was upset, and that got me upset:

"Can you pl arrange things with your boss so that you can DEFINITELY be here for the next event? FIX THIS. I'm sick of this."

I apologised for this "shouty" email later, but he says this is part of a longstanding pattern of abuse, which I can't recognise. I don't see that this email is all that terrible, though I recognise I should not have sent it because there is not much he can do abt the demands of the job at the moment.

I am the first to admit that I have a short temper. I have gone to counselling to try and fix it. I think I have now got my outbursts down to say three or four times a year. I try very hard, but sometimes the stress from other parts of our life spills over. My husband says I should find other ways of coping and not take it out on him. I agree. I find this easier said than done though. When I say I get angry, there is no namecalling/ no fighting in front of the children/no physical abuse. Just me losing my temper like above/sometimes speaking in a nasty tone, and so on.

My idea of marriage is that if one person occasionally blows up, the other person should forgive them if they apologise. I'd do the same with him. However, he is the type of person who stays mostly calm and then has a big blowup once a year or so. I should also mention that he hates confrontation in most areas of his life. He likes pleasant interactions everywhere; but this is something I find unviable in family life.

He is now so furious that he wants to cancel our family holiday because he does not want to go anywhere with me. He has also said really hurtful things, such as "You have been the cause of most of my unhappiness in the past few years." I really don't know what to do now. I have apologised, but he won't accept an apology. Please help.

Alittlestranger that is one of the most bullying posts I've ever read. Do you have a history of bullying? What a very nasty little post. Yuck. Worthless??? Really???? And I like getting sexually harassed by my boss??? Nice, real nice.

Did you even read Stranger's post properly?

It's also like the women who say it's ok to be woken up by their OH's having sex on them because it happens to them as well.

Essentially, just because you say it's ok in your relationship, it doesn't mean it's ok for all relationships, or even the OP's relationship, less even for the OP's husband.

Rainbow with all due respect your opinion is worthless

Why? Rainbow is just pointing out that in her experience most relationships don't crumble just because there's an occasional outburst of bad temper. For many people prolonged sulking (if that's what it is) would be far more damaging. And PLEASE remember that the OP's husband has rare outbursts too; this has been explained up thread.

This isn't victim blaming unless you've already decided that the OP's DH is the victim of abuse. As we've all repeatedly said, we don't know enough about the dynamic to know exactly what's going on here. But I'm personally not convinced by that reading of the evidence, as I've already explained.

nooka, I was really interested in your point about how blowing up & festering can both be emotional reactions & equally problematic if they reinforce a negative relationship pattern. My worry about the whole thread has just been that the OP is accepting so much of the responsibility & blame that I wonder what impetus there is for her DH to start to recognize his own contributions to this.

And then there is the more disturbing possibility that OP's DH doesn't want to do that because he benefits from a situation in which his wife is always "in the wrong". I don't know that that's true, but it just can't be discounted. Have recent posters read the contributions above from people like flippinada & KouignAmann? How can you be sure that something similar isn't happening in the OP's marriage?

It's not that he's just pissed off with her. He finds her abusive. In his eyes, she has caused him years of unhappiness.

No, we don't know this. We just know that OP's DH has said this on at least one occasion. We also know he's repeatedly told her she's the best thing that ever happened to him. The former could be a true expression of his feelings - & I already said up thread that, if so, he's entitled to those feelings & of course to take appropriate action (presumably to end his marriage).

Or it could be something he's said in a moment of anger & doesn't really mean. Or it could simply reflect his own extreme emotional response to any breach of the "pleasant interaction" OP has referred to. Or it could be that he wants his wife to feel on the back foot, never knowing quite where she stands, whether she's in his "good books" or not. WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

Biggordie, did you honestly read much of this thread? After all the nuanced discussions going on here I did laugh a bit at the idea that this can all be sorted out by the OP "counting to ten" more often. And FWIW my DH thinks you're being very patronising to the rest of your / his sex with the statement that "men are simple souls" who can't handle negative emotions (though of course I agree noone wants to be abused / shouted at).

The OP's husband doesn't have to be a victim of abuse for Rainbow's post to be victim blaming.
It's an expression that puts the responsibility on the recipient of a behaviour, as Rainbow did.

And I'm saying this from the point of view of someone (the first on the thread?) that suggested joint counselling, and that we cannot fully know the picture because we have scant information and only one side of the story.

But that's the point, Lweji - we don't know that his role is primarily that of recipient of a behaviour, as opposed to say, an equal participant in an unhealthy dynamic, or even as someone who is actively manoeuvring the OP into a particular role.

I've reread rainbow's post - most of it was just talking about her own preferences for open expressions of anger v. festering / the silent treatment. I still don't see the victim blaming.

Totally agree with you about the joint counselling suggestion & the points about scant information etc., though I do think there's a lot more info. here than a few later posters seem to be aware of - didn't mean you.

I'm with loonvan et al

In terms of him not answering the phone OP I'd leave him to stew & just text him any important information. If he is using none response as a controlling measure the best way to deal with it is to refuse to engage. His response to the conversation about counselling was weird as well. Do you generally feel you have to walk on eggshells around him or does he only react like this to your temper (if the counselling response could be described as temper)?

I do find it amusing that the posters who admit to liking a good shout are also the first to try and escalate things. As someone who doesn't get off on anger I'm not feeding someone else's need.

The victim blaming was how the oh was expected to answer appropriately to the email, but the op was excused because the email was not that bad.

We don't know if he's still maintaining radio silence and why he didn't take the calls. They clearly talked (email or phone) after that email, so it's not like he festered after that.
I might not want to get involved into lengthy discussions over the phone if I was abroad either. Particularly if I had lots of work to do and needed to concentrate or had to be at meetings. Trips abroad or away for work are usually work packed. Even if it involves work social functions, it's not the best time to discuss relationships.
It's different if a partner is working abroad.

People who assume he's punishing the OP are just as biased as those who assume she's abusive.

'Do you generally feel you have to walk on eggshells around him '

From the tone of her email, I'm guessing the answer to this is a big NO

So no apology littlestranger. Liking a shout and bullying are quite separate. Calling someone worthless and suggesting they enjoy being sexually assaulted is plain bullying.

My DP occasionally loses it in the way you describe - shouting and nasty but not violent etc. It is horrible. Things have improved now I have been able to convey to him just how damaging this is. However as a peacemaker/confrontation-avoider it was extremely wearing having to deal with a very different style of approaching conflict.

Ironic that you seem annoyed at him for being angry with you, yet you are content to let him have to put up with ongoing low-level aggression. There is really no need for any aggression in a relationship.

Your DP may find it hard to call you on things in the moment if he thinks it may inflame things. Try showing him the respect and courtesy you would show friends, colleagues etc.

Lweji, I don't agree with you. I don't like your take on things. I wouldn't make comments about you being a rape excuser, I just don't agree with you. The beauty of mumsnet is the differing opinions. Viva la difference. I am not suggesting you are wrong or insulting you. I just don't agree with you. And that is fine. I choose to live life differently.

Calling someone worthless and suggesting they enjoy being sexually assaulted is plain bullying.

I agree, Rainbow. Ironically ALittleStranger's comments seem to me to be far more intrinsically abusive / closer to a personal attack than anything OP has said to her DH (as far as we know).

i think it is cheapening to rape and sexual harassment victims to compare being the recipient of a ratty email 3 times a year to the victimisation of sexual assault.

it just reads like a nasty cheap shot with no taste.

I agree with Lewji

Rainbow And I have no issue with a bit of shouting either giving or receiving. Don't find it least bit frightening.

Well, people are different and some people don't like being shouted at.

Give me a get it all out shouter over a resentful seether any day of the week.

These are not mutually exclusive or exhaustive.

C'mon. It was an allegory. Or symbolic? Or something.
It wasn't a direct comparison.

Everyone has their own expectations and boundaries in a relationship of course. For me, I am not interested in being blown up at, even if my partner has got it down to just three or four times a years. I won't forgive straight away even if my partner wants me to just move on. This failure to jump into line doesn't make me manipulative or punishing. It's just how I feel and react to being shouted at.

she's expressing her personal preference - how does that need picking apart ffs? she didn't say a shouter is a better did she? she spoke in personal preference terms very clearly.

blimey there's some aggression and attack on here.

so you'd threaten to cancel your children's holiday if your partner sent you a snappy email then john?

I think it depends on what he defines as abusive.
If he only wants happy smiley interactions from everyone, then a) he's living in cloud cuckoo land and b) shouting at him in a text/email would be considered aggressive, and therefore could be termed as abuse, in the wider definition of the word.

However - his set of responses to your frustration/anger at him upsetting your DD (a lapse of temper which, by now, he should be familiar with) is completely OTT! Refusing to go on holiday with you, cancelling the family holiday, telling you that you are the source of his unhappiness - now THESE comments are red-flag worthy and would make me wonder if he's actually picking a fight.

But as to whether or not you actually are emotionally abusive, I couldn't tell you from this example. I don't think the email was EA; but as I said at the start, it could be defined as abusing him in terms of just shouting at him for something that he may have been unable to avoid.

Really? I would be very, very unhappy if DH addressed me in that way, genuinely, I would be questioning our relationship. I'm not interested in this "My idea of marriage is that if one person occasionally blows up, the other person should forgive them if they apologise."
Fortunately, over the years, DH has learnt to reign in his temper - as it sounds like the OP is doing - so that questioning doesn't arise so often, but genuinely, yes, I will not be talked to like that.

You see I think questioning a whole relationship on the basis of a nippy email is out of proportion. I would have to question the strength of the whole relationship if one snippy email brought the whole thing into question.

I am far from perfect. My husband is far from perfect. Sometimes if he is under stress or pressure he behaves badly. He apologises, I forgive and we move on. A full enquiry isn't always required.

To cancel a holiday on the basis of this email is disproportionate.

If you can get annoyed upset and angry and behave well then excellent job. I aim for this but fall some way below perfect. My husband still loves me. He doesn't cancel holidays because I've fallen below exacting standards.

Understanding is as much a part of a loving relationship as anything else.

do you think it's genetic? My father was a very anxious man ( not to blame any of this on him) My daughter is v anxious too

I suspect it's not genetic per se, but will run in families, because that's the pattern of behaviour you witness as you grow up.

I am a big stickler for punctuality, and will arrive at the station or airport hours early rather than risk being 2 minutes late. This is all because my father in particular, my mother to a lesser extent, and also my friend's parents (with whom we shared swimming lifts, and who were almost like a second set of parents) were very strong on punctuality, and I could see how wound up and anxious my father would get when anything happened that might lead to us leaving a bit late. My aunt in contrast is the other extreme, probably as a reaction to being brought up to see time-keeping as so important, and is never on time for anything, never has been, and used to annoy my father, their brother and parents like anything.

I am sure any other type of anxiety, not just around time-keeping, can also be passed on in the same way.

I think that's also why we learn different ways of managing conflict. It's very difficult to change patterns of behaviour that are laid down so young, especially if we don't realise why we are that way, or that there might be other ways of doing something.

I hope you both work it out, OP. It sounds to me like you have both been under masses of stress for various reasons coming together at once, and you have different ways of handling it and handling conflict, and it's all coming to a head because you're both running low on resilience after everything else. I think you could probably both do more to recognise the effects your reactions will have on the other person's emotions, and if you can think about that, it's a good starting point for learning to modify behaviour for the future - for both of you.

The email, as the op said, is the latest in a long line of disputes.

Others may be perfectly happy to be regularly spoken to like peasants when their only crime is to be working hard for their family, I am not.
My marriage is perfectly strong, thank you, but yeah, it is conditional on being respected.

Maybe the DH here feels that way too. Who knows?