Is this email abusive/ am I abusive?

[mayapapaya]

I am a regular poster but have changed my name for this. I am at a very difficult place in my marriage for many reasons. Some of the reasons are to do with job and family stress, and are beyond my control at the moment. The primary reason is that my husband thinks I am emotionally abusive.

The latest dispute is about whether this mail below is abusive. A bit of context. He had to unexpectedly travel for work and missed a v important event in DD's life. This is not the first time this has happened. I sent him this email because she was upset, and that got me upset:

"Can you pl arrange things with your boss so that you can DEFINITELY be here for the next event? FIX THIS. I'm sick of this."

I apologised for this "shouty" email later, but he says this is part of a longstanding pattern of abuse, which I can't recognise. I don't see that this email is all that terrible, though I recognise I should not have sent it because there is not much he can do abt the demands of the job at the moment.

I am the first to admit that I have a short temper. I have gone to counselling to try and fix it. I think I have now got my outbursts down to say three or four times a year. I try very hard, but sometimes the stress from other parts of our life spills over. My husband says I should find other ways of coping and not take it out on him. I agree. I find this easier said than done though. When I say I get angry, there is no namecalling/ no fighting in front of the children/no physical abuse. Just me losing my temper like above/sometimes speaking in a nasty tone, and so on.

My idea of marriage is that if one person occasionally blows up, the other person should forgive them if they apologise. I'd do the same with him. However, he is the type of person who stays mostly calm and then has a big blowup once a year or so. I should also mention that he hates confrontation in most areas of his life. He likes pleasant interactions everywhere; but this is something I find unviable in family life.

He is now so furious that he wants to cancel our family holiday because he does not want to go anywhere with me. He has also said really hurtful things, such as "You have been the cause of most of my unhappiness in the past few years." I really don't know what to do now. I have apologised, but he won't accept an apology. Please help.

[diddl]

OP, did you ever answer-how possible is it for your husband to "fix" with his boss?

[KouignAmann]

Maya I have found your thread really useful and interesting and it has given me lots to think about. I too am an "anxious shouter" and having been for lots of therapy have understood I am a much more sensitive soul than I realised. There is just a split second after someone has hurt me before I become angry and retaliate.

I was in a marriage with a PA conflict avoider who used to push my buttons to get me to express anger on behalf of both of us. It has taken me years to understand that my howls of frustrated rage were not because I was an abuser but was being manipulated. But I was very nasty to him and not very pleasant to live with and I am ashamed of my behaviour.

After leaving that relationship I have been so afraid that I would ruin future happiness with my temper. But I have found a lovely and patient DP who doesn't trigger me and I have settled down into contented amiability and am beginning to trust myself.

Could I have changed while still married to XH with the longstanding dynamic we had created? I doubt it sadly. But maybe you can.

Sorry this is a me me me post but it is so helpful to identify this pattern in my past.

[Pagwatch]

Maya,

I think there may be a genetic pattern to be honest - like depression. Although I have nothing but instinct to back that up.

I completely hear you and understand. The leisurely preparation for a flight would tip me right over the edge a year ago.
I think we got into a dynamic tha just repeated itself over and over. My inclination to get to the airport the day before we flew (ha, not really but you know what I mean) would be so extreme that he was so busy being relaxed that he swung too far in the other direction. So we were both winding each other up whilst both believing ourselves to be completely reasonable.

Once I was able to drop the sniping and 'oh for fucks sake-ing' I was able to say 'look. I am really anxious about being late and I am trying to temper that so could you do me a favour and agree that we get there a bit early. It will cost you nothing and it might make the whole process a bit easier on both of us'
We cn do that now - I control my extreme stuff and he accepts being places earlier than he would chose. It gives us space.

numpty
For the sake of clarity I Have not blamed the op for anything.

I have however described my own anxiety pretty honestly so your describing that as a "freakish monster" isn't terribly helpful.

There is no blame attached to anxiety but to pretend that the person who admits to being challenging and negative is allowed to do that with impunity and those on the end of it must be responsible doesn't strike me as helpful.
Not least because I think my children probably suffered from being around my anxious negativity too.

The op sounds extremely smart and self aware. I'm sure she is capeable of determining how to deal with this situation and my suspicions is that they both need to reign in the dynamic they have created.

[youmakemydreams]

I agree with numpty everyone is concentrating on that one email. And standing alone yes it sounds horrible nut it could also be someone at the end of their tether as well. Her dh is completely ignoring her now not taking his calls. I've seen threads where there would be outcry at that. But this time it's being treated as oh he just needs to calm down give him some space where it could also be that be is using it as a technique to punish her, have her tying herself up in knots and grovelling. It is controlling he holds all the cards right now and the op is sitting here happily taking the blame for everything that is going wrong.

[Lweji]

In view of your updates, I think I'd suggest and arrange for couples counselling.

I think for people to give advice over this, they need a complete picture and both sides. It also looks like both of you need to find ways to deal better with stress and confrontation.
A counsellor may be able to teach you both those tools. It may also be a good idea at transactional analysis to find ways of talking about things without resorting to emails like yours.

[Pagwatch]

Youmakemydreams

But that is simply not true.
The op is sensible and honest and as admitted being shouty, having a short temper and blow ups and that her behaviour has caused he to seek counselling.

I personally think telling a woman who is taking responsibility for her behaviour and seeking advice to improve her own life that she is stupid because she must actually be a victim is more dismissive than anything else on this thread.

[LoonvanBoon]

Of course it's a good thing to take responsibility for one's own behaviour & become more aware of its effects on loved ones. Of course it's positive to learn to manage anger.

But I still feel uneasy about this. I've reread all the OP's posts & I still think that she's prepared to accept too much of the blame here. I agree with numpty that this could very well indicate an unhealthy pattern that already exists in her relationship.

A few points still stand out for me:

OP said that her DH blows up too, just with less frequency (once a year, as opposed to 3 or 4 times). Presumably she forgives him & doesn't use this as a stick to beat him with.

She has told us that her rare outbursts don't involve any name-calling / personal abuse.

She has given us examples of her DH's behaviour where he has been dismissive of her experiences & said extremely wounding things.

OP has told us that her DH wants a "pleasant interaction" style to prevail at all times, though he doesn't seem to stick to that himself. In any case many people wouldn't find this feasible in all aspects of family life.

OP has given us info. about her DH's childhood / family which offers a possible explanation for an extreme aversion to any open expression of anger. It seems to me that this aversion is just as unhealthy as a tendency to take out one's anxiety on other people.

OP has told us how her DH has reacted to her outbursts, & his reactions have included threatening to call off a holiday for the whole family, refusing to talk to her or take her calls. I just don't understand how anyone can see the OP's admittedly bad-tempered & bossy email (originally the focus of the thread) as being worse or more "abusive" than this behaviour.

None of us know enough about their marriage or the chronology of events to know if her DH's behaviour is purely an instinctive response to OP's actions, or a much more calculated attempt to punish her & force her to comply with his extreme conflict-averse communication style.

OP's responses on this thread suggest someone really quite self-deprecating who can recognize her own faults clearly & who is inclined to take on board responsibility for problems. Again, we don't have enough info. to know if her DH is similarly self-aware & able to own his problems. I worry, on the basis of the above points, that he may not be, & that this thread may just confirm or worsen a quite unequal situation.

[Pagwatch]

I think everyone has said it is imposible to really understand the dynamic.

I have tried to describe my anxiety and how it affected my family. The op said it rang bells. That ay be right or wrong and, by all means, the posts articulating an alternate view are valid.

I objected to the characterisation of anxiety based behaviours as being a 'freakish monster' and to a post saying that people were responding to one email - which is patently bollocks.

[youmakemydreams]

Loonvan articulates it far better than me but my sentiment is exactly the same.
And at no point have I said anywhere that the op was stupid or that anxiety was some freakish monster. I actually find that pretty offensive.
And sorry it's nor bollocks the majority of the posts are focussing on one arsey email which could have come from a multitude of places the op was in at the time.

[Pagwatch]

It is bollocks to say that people were focusing on one arsey email when most, including me, had read everything thatthe op had posted which was way more thn one email.
And you ddn't say 'freakish monster'. That was an exact quote from another poster. So obviously there is no need to be offended as it wasn't you that posted it. Although I'm pleased that you also see it as an offensive thing to say.

[NumptyNameChange]

i did not say that being anxious makes anyone a freakish monster i was saying that for all we knew he has made her feel like one ongoingly and this is the first time she's ever actually questioned it.

believe me i'm the last to accuse anyone with anxiety of being freakish and i don't get how you made the leap from my post about how the OP may be being treated to it being about you pag. tbh you weren't even on my radar.

[NumptyNameChange]

yes loonvan has articulated it well.

pag - i never said that - i used the term 'freakish monster' in a totally different context and presumably unintentionally you have made it about you and are therefore totally misrepresenting what was said.

let's try and remember this thread is about the OP.

[Pagwatch]

Haha at 'let's remember this is about the op.

[flippinada]

I'm read through the thread and am also concerned by the references to the husband sulking and ignoring OP for days.

I do very much appreciate that being shouted at and having to deal with constant negativity is unpleasant. I'm coming from the perspective of having an abusive/bullying ex who used tactics like this on me

Personally, I am a gentle and fairly easy going sort of person who rarely if ever loses their temper but I do recall that XP used to goad and bait me (ignoring was a favoured tactic, following me around delivering impromptu character assassinations in a calm, deliberate tone was another) until I lost my temper/shouted then used that against me. Essentially I was set up to be in the wrong.

Might this be what's going on here?

Please note I'm not saying the H is an abuser just saying it may be a possibility.

[nooka]

Sounds to that the OP and her dh have got into a very negative circle, and that because their personalities and the way that they react to stress are very difficult they are both finding it difficult to empathise, and more importantly to change the dynamics.

I can't see that the fault finding or need to determine who is to blame are very helpful. They love each other but are making each other unhappy. It will take concentrated effort for both of them to resolve.

Me and dh separated for fairly similar reasons, patterns of behaviour that weren't that big a deal became a major problem when we had a period of high stress and issues both escalated and festered to the point when we just couldn't live together.

I wish we had addressed them way back before things got so bad. We have both had to learn that we have some unhealthy behaviours mainly around communication. Interestingly now we have teens we can see some of the same patterns in our children so it's been good to both pass on and apply our learning.

I do think it's important to reflect that both blowing up and festering are emotional reactions, festering is no more planned than an outburst. If your natural reaction is to withdraw from conflict it doesn't mean you are weak or manipulative, in the same way that blowing up isn't necessarily intentionally abusive. They are just patterns of behaviour that have become instinctive over time. Both require conscious effort to break/reduce.

[perfectstorm]

I don't think there's any way of knowing whether the OP is someone whose spouse attacks her over perfectly normal levels of annoyance in a marriage, or someone whose mode of expressing that annoyance is scary and upsetting. I think the many people who have suggested counselling as the way forward - couples, not individual - have it right, because as it is we're arguing over unknowables. Any one of the scenarios here could be right, or equally, wrong.

OP, I hope your H has calmed down a bit and you can talk when he gets back.

[Biggordie]

Sounds to me like this is a pattern from you to just give hassle after hassle to your poor husband. If he were writing on this page I am sure "his side" of the story would be very different from yours. Keep your temper in check and count to 10 more often and your relationship will be a lot better. Us men are simple souls, a bit of love and affection gets you what YOU want more than shouty and abuse.

[Beechview]

But he is on a work trip. I don't know how stressful his job is, if he's meant to be networking or entertaining in the evenings etc. He may just be busy and not want to deal with this at the moment. It doesn't necessarily mean he s sulking.

I know when I've been in this situation, I've genuinely not wanted to deal with conversations or talk to dh until I've calmed down, which has taken a day or so.

Yes, for all we know, he may be a manipulative arse, but he may not be either.

[rainbowsmiles]

I think I must be on a different planet. The email is just nothing. Bit annoyed but no major anything. To suggest abusive???? Are we all just to be perfect people. No wonder you are anxious when one small slip from perfection causes holiday cancellation.

And I have no issue with a bit of shouting either giving or receiving. Don't find it least bit frightening.

Give me a get it all out shouter over a resentful seether any day of the week. Pretty sure the resentful seether is unhealthy in general. I love a good shout or cry it's a release. Usually the quiet seether is a result of being brought up in an environment where they cannot express their anger safely.

What pressure to put yourself under. How about a little understanding. Honestly OP I think you both need to chill out.

[Lweji]

Rainbow, it really depends on what went on before.
Personally if a partner sent me that email I'd tell him he'd be welcome to get a job and earn the money I was.
Going on trips is not that much fun and in this case there's not a lot he could do, so, such outbursts are unfair and just unsettling.

I'm one that is ok with the occasional outburst, but within reason.

The comments about the email took it in the context of what the op said. For him it could well be the last straw.

As an example, my DS has basically cut with his dad on what may have seemed to him like nothing, just something he had always done and basically got away with it. Except that DS got fed up and decided not to put up with it anymore.

In this case, it was not something that came out of the OP's mouth and she quickly realised it was unfair. She went out of her way to send it, after trying to call him. She basically wanted him to suffer as much as her DD and herself. It looks like he didn't contact him first to apologise, but only when called on it. I'm not sure I'd accept apologies either.

I bet it would have been different if the OP had told him that DD was upset and she was upset too that he had missed the event. Even if she had said she was very angry with him.
The tone of the actual email was very different

[differentnameforthis]

just because he's pissed off with his wife.

It's not that he's just pissed off with her. He finds her abusive. In his eyes, she has caused him years of unhappiness.

Would you tell a female poster to go on holiday with her dh if he made her feel like that? We have to be careful not to dismiss the dh's feelings here, he feels what he feels & to make that into him being pissed off is not fair.

[rainbowsmiles]

Lwej I get all of that but I just think the email is just her expressing her annoyance with the situation - not perfectly I grant you- but even noteworthy? In my opinion no. A quick. "Yeah alright hardly my choice, unfair to send me your guilt too" would have been enough. But punishment??? That is way too weird for me.

[Lweji]

Rainbow, that is a typical victim blaming response. Yes, the email was nasty and unfair, but the other person should have responded appropriately and not be upset by it.
Why does it become the oh's reaponsibility to respond appropriately to the email? Why is his response punishment and not just being upset and fed up?

[NotJustACigar]

Having read your update it seems like you oth have behaved badly at times. However I suppose it doesn't help too much trying to figure out whose behaviour is the worst and apportioning blame out in exact percentages. All that really matters is whether you want to fix things, and if you do then how you will go about it.