Is this email abusive/ am I abusive?

[mayapapaya]

I am a regular poster but have changed my name for this. I am at a very difficult place in my marriage for many reasons. Some of the reasons are to do with job and family stress, and are beyond my control at the moment. The primary reason is that my husband thinks I am emotionally abusive.

The latest dispute is about whether this mail below is abusive. A bit of context. He had to unexpectedly travel for work and missed a v important event in DD's life. This is not the first time this has happened. I sent him this email because she was upset, and that got me upset:

"Can you pl arrange things with your boss so that you can DEFINITELY be here for the next event? FIX THIS. I'm sick of this."

I apologised for this "shouty" email later, but he says this is part of a longstanding pattern of abuse, which I can't recognise. I don't see that this email is all that terrible, though I recognise I should not have sent it because there is not much he can do abt the demands of the job at the moment.

I am the first to admit that I have a short temper. I have gone to counselling to try and fix it. I think I have now got my outbursts down to say three or four times a year. I try very hard, but sometimes the stress from other parts of our life spills over. My husband says I should find other ways of coping and not take it out on him. I agree. I find this easier said than done though. When I say I get angry, there is no namecalling/ no fighting in front of the children/no physical abuse. Just me losing my temper like above/sometimes speaking in a nasty tone, and so on.

My idea of marriage is that if one person occasionally blows up, the other person should forgive them if they apologise. I'd do the same with him. However, he is the type of person who stays mostly calm and then has a big blowup once a year or so. I should also mention that he hates confrontation in most areas of his life. He likes pleasant interactions everywhere; but this is something I find unviable in family life.

He is now so furious that he wants to cancel our family holiday because he does not want to go anywhere with me. He has also said really hurtful things, such as "You have been the cause of most of my unhappiness in the past few years." I really don't know what to do now. I have apologised, but he won't accept an apology. Please help.

It's so difficult to comment on from this without more background but it did resonate with me as something me ex used to do and still does at times. He used to say I was abusive because I'd blow up. And the question do you do it with everyone or just him is a bit of a red herring in my instance because no I didn't. It was only him.
The thing with my situation was that I seen eventually was actually he was deliberately goading me.
He had spent years manipulating me to learn exactly what buttons to push while always remaining calm on the exterior until I did blow up. Then he would tell me I was being abusive, he wasn't losing his temper with me etc.
The reason I didn't behave like that with other people was that other people weren't playing with my head the way he did for 7 years.
He still tries to do it now so he cam show his wife what an awful bitch I am but it doesn't work anymore. I can see it coming now. I'm also in a relationship with successful communication, with someone that doesn't try and tie me up in knots until I'm so anxious and stressed out I feel like in ready to explode.

What was the very important event in dds life? Dh kept working while ds was hospitalised with meningitis because he had to be at work and only one of us needed to be there, but I would have been upset if he's missed a christening for work? Maybe it's the importance of the event to him?

i agree that the fact he's willing to cancel his children's holiday to punish OP is telling.

sure abuse is in the eye of the beholder EXCEPT when it's a tool of an abuser and a form of gaslighting. and we just don't know from this exchange.

however whilst no the email wasn't pleasant the reaction of threatening to cancel the family holiday isn't either.

also the, 'you have no choice as an employee' business - well actually that's a matter of values isn't it? so for some the 'it might dent my career progression' is reason to go with it, for others their ability to attend their child's important events comes first. if both partners are on the same page they are compassionate and supportive to one another - if they're not on the same page re: they have different values then it causes conflict.

OP is it that you think he could have changed this without harm to his career or is that you perceive a pattern where he always puts his career first and you don't think it should be the first or only consideration? do you have the same attitudes to how much money is enough? how much success is worth how much out of family time? or do you see it differently?

OP Fair enough, diddl. But do you find it easy to change patterns of behaviour? I struggle with it.

I didn't get that from diddl's post, I thought she was challenging the double-standards going on.

It seems to me that your husband finds your behaviour hurtful. That should be the end of it - no "yes buts".

Dh used to get angry - I was not going to out anger him so I would prob behave as your dh has done by simmering furiously and yes, not wanting to be around him.

Your email was contemptuous and I would be deeply hurt and I would wonder why I was with someone who loathed me and had no appreciation of my working for the family.

At this stage I would apologise and look at anger management.

You seem to be convinced that how you fel, how you react, how you are trying should completely control how he reacts to your behaviour.

You are asking for understanding because you struggle to control yourself but have improved so that you are 'only' snippy and aggressive.

Do you not understand that he is going to be affected by what you do? That his emotional response to your actions is as valid as yours?

If dh snaps as me and then apologises I don't suddenly forget the upset or how hurt I felt. The emotions his hurtful words provoked don't disappear.
I may accept his apology and understand but it has still affected me.

You seem not to understand that every time you are rude or shouting, you are chipping away at how he feels about you. And that is not his fault. It's yours.
That isn't said to blame you - I definately sympathise with your anxiety etc - but you seem to want to blame him.
Do you not regard his feelings as valid just because you later regret your outbursts ?

If you don't then you can't resolve this.

I didn't register the bit about the threat from OP's DH to cancel the holiday the first time I read this. I agree that this sounds not only OTT but quite controlling - & I find it disturbing that he would be prepared to punish his child(ren) by making them miss their holiday just because he's pissed off with his wife.

The OP has said that the threat is to cancel the holiday, not to go without her, PleasenoScar, but I don't see how the latter would be acceptable anyway. How could it be okay to tell the kids that mum's not allowed to go on holiday? Or that dad won't go because he can't stand mum at the moment? All this makes it sound like the balance of power, so to speak, is certainly not with the OP in this marriage.

HowGoodisthat, I thought your post was really honest, interesting & balanced.

so you find it hard not to be snippy.

yet you expect him to change his reaction to your snippiness just like that! maybe he finds it just as hard to change his reaction to your temper.

you're still blaming him.

and 'aggressive rather than abusive' - it's a very very thin line.

watch out here - you are making changes and cutting back on your temper. great - but be aware that it might be too little too late.

Pagwatch said it well.

The onus is not on him to diffuse your temper but on you.

I appreciate his sulking looks petty but unless there is more to this than what you've written, it prob comes from hurt and not having other tools at his disposal.

I told dh he could be as angry as he liked but I wasn't going to live with an angry man. He did some counselling and he is aware of himself. I think you should.

It's not enough to say in family life you forgive someone for saying shitty things.
Why should you?

Pagwatch, your post gives me pause for thought. May I ask how you have moved on when your DH snaps at you? Because I clearly deal with it very differently. If my DH snaps at me, then apologises, I just move on and don't give it another thought.

It's not that I don't recognise his feelings as valid; i just find it v difficult to understand such deep hurt.

I think counselling would help both of you communicate better. You need to be less angry and he needs to stand up to you.

My DH's ex was similar to you and he ended up leaving her because of the hurtful verbal abuse (I wasn't the OW, I met him several years later). She has remained single because nobody can deal with her aggression and she has never got help for her anger problem.

It depends really, and as others have said, it's hard to get a view from your few posts.
If DH comes in and says 'what's for supper' in a snappy voice and then apologises then I can forget it instantly - its the equivalent of kicking the cat.

If he comes in and says 'oh for fucks sake. Is this really supper? Was it too challenging after the whole day sitting on our arse' and then apologises then I would find that impossible to just get over.
Because it articulates a view of me that is contemptuous and dismissive and hurtful. And I would believe somewhere deep down that that is how he really feels, that he doesn't respect or care about me. It would change how I felt about our relationship.

There are generic 'oh for fuck sake' comments that are just wailing at the world.
Then there are specific, honed insults and complaints that speak to a lack of love, lack of respect. If they are thrown out regularly then the apologies would become les and less relevant.

It kind of depends what you do. The email was contemptuous and full of blame. Is that a normal line of your anger?

• I have to say, DH never says nothing like that to me. I am exaggerating to make a point. He is lovely.

Howgoodisthat, your post also v helpful ( a lot of others have been as well; just can't namecheck everyone). I too have started exercising, taking supplements ( though they don't seem to help at all), and trying to generally do less. I recognise some of what you say.

OP, we had a very stressful few years when DH would snap and shout quite frequently. He was possibly similar to you in that he felt better straight afterwards but I would feel dreadful for days and really dwell on the hurt and cruel words. Why would he say them if he didn't mean them?

I started to dread going home and really withdraw from him. Luckily we found a way to talk it through, the external stress reduced, he doesn't shout really at all and I am slightly more resilient. I still absolutely hate it though.

I don't think the email was abusive. Better said, than read, though. He's probably stewed over that email 100 times.

And sulking for days on end? That is abusive, imo.

Sulking (or withdrawing) does come from hurt. But sulking for days? - pure indulgence, imo.

Agree with Pagwatch, again.

You've even said that your email wasn't "all that terrible". I would hold a grudge about that for hmm a while I think. I know you didn't mean it, I know it was a flash of anger but I would have heard:
"You don't care about our daughter as much as I do. You're weak. You let them walk over you at work (as I'm doing at home). You're useless. Again."
And that would really, really hurt me.

Pagwatch, gosh. I would never say that second nasty comment, or equivalent. I agree the email sounded like I wd, but I was at the end of my tether.

My normal snippiness would be more along the first comment you mentioned, the "what's for dinner" kind, tho not about dinner. Also perhaps "oh for fucks sake" comments, not even directed at him, but at say, the plumber who didn't turn up, and so on.

I have also remembered now what we fought over in August, which I still to this day find puzzling. It was after a session wt my therapist/counsellor. She used a particular psychological term to describe how I am coping with changes in my life ( we have had moves, deaths, job loss in a v short time). I repeated it to DH. He then asked in a dismissive tone, " What on earth does that mean?" Loudly for him. I said "Well, I knew you wouldn't get it," possibly equally snappily. This caused him to be furious for days.

I just don't seem to get tone at all.

I aslo concur wholly with pag there.

OP I think you seek to minimise your aggresive, bad tempered and rude behaviour, and inflate your husband's role in it.

Until you can understand that you, and you alone, are responsible for how you behave and subsequently how that behaviour makes your husband feel, I think you are going to really struggle to resolve things.

Being 'only' snapped at is actually very hurtful. It is rude to snap at people, and I'm sure you realise that and mange not to at work or with your friends. You know other people would not put up with it, so why do you suppose your husband should? It is not your husband's role to absorb your anger.

Who else is on the receiving end of your temper in this way?

It may be because I have been in a gaslighted situation but I feel loads of sympathy for you op. I am curious to know more about the dynamic of your relationship.
When I left my ex my mum asked me why I'd never said how bad it was but while I was living it I didn't see it. I was like you tying myself up in knots trying to analyse my behaviour and how I could change. It wasn't until the light bulb moment when I finally realised it didn't matter how much I changed my behaviour he was always going to be the same and I was never going to be good enough.
I was expected to support all his needs but my struggles and needs always came second place.

I have dreadful levels of anxiety so I do recognise what you say. And I see how hard you have been working to deal with it so I am concerned that anything I post may sound critical. It really isn't . It just resonates iyswim.

I tended to chuck 'offs' out into the world. And when I was feeling anxious I would be incredibly negative. So when we were travelling for example, any problem on route and I would just vent at dh who was incredibly patient but it was so draining for him.
He talked to me about it and I came to see that my negativity, my need to vocalise and vent about everything that was triggering my anxiety was draining to be around. I may not have said it out loud but my manner endlessly critical of him, even when it was something out of his or my control.
Is that possibly how your venting appears to him if not you.

You say you would never say nothing as horrible as the thing I psted but to be totally honest I think your email was exactly the same. It was full of contempt and it read to me as JohnFarley paraphrased it 'you are useless and spineless and you have let your child down as you always do'

DH adores me but I know his patience was stretched thin. I couldn't deal with it until I really tried to accept that I could not expect him to be the conduit for all my anxiety. He was starting to resent it even if he genuinely understood it wasn't my fault.
Could that be what is happening with you?

DH and I agreed on a code phrase which we both use - he in the face of my shoutiness and I in the face of his passive-aggressive withdrawals:

"I am not the enemy here".

It means "Back off" and "Give me a break" and "YABU" all in one but it isn't confrontational and it was the best we could agree that wouldn't rile each other in a heated moment.

It has worked very well for us. But it has taken a lot of talking and negotiation to get to the point where it works. And it requires constant vigilance to keep it up.

Listen to me - it sounds like we are at loggerheads all the time and that isn't the case at all! It was way worse when the kids were tiny and we were knackered and under stress. That was when we proper fell out. Nowadays we have more time and emotional space to talk things out before we hit full blown humdingers.

You are reflecting on your own actions, he needs to do the same - and then you can come to an agreed strategy - if you both want it. IF you blow up and then it blows over, while he is a serial sulker and a nurturer of grievance, then there is a lot of ground to work over. That was my parents' relationship and they still struggle to understand each other.

This thread is genuinely eye-opening for me. I'm well aware that people have widely differing levels of tolerance when it comes to conflict; but I honestly didn't think many people would be so upset about, & unable to forgive, everyday snippiness / exasperation.

I really couldn't cope with personal attacks, nasty comments, or people who constantly lose it & shout a lot. But when it comes to the "FFS" type of exasperated outburst, it's water off a duck's back, really. And I thought I was too sensitive!

Re. that email again: I would be annoyed if it had been sent to me. I would have told DH not to talk to me like that. But seriously hurt & sulking for ages? Just can't imagine it. And I do think that what OP's DH said to her is much, much more hurtful & difficult to recover from.

If he's just speaking the truth, feels abused & wants out of the marriage - well, I guess those are his feelings & that's his right. But if he doesn't, what's he trying to achieve? Does he want OP walking of eggshells, terrified of expressing any of her feelings for fear of the fallout, feeling she has to behave or she won't be allowed to go on holiday?

From OP's subsequent posts, it sounds like her DH is just as capable of a bit of snippiness / dismissiveness that could be read as aggression, as she is. I know we can't get the whole picture from a few posts that inevitably tell one side of the story: but I really don't see the OP as emotionally abusive here; whereas I am seeing her DH (on this account) as quite controlling.

Incidentally, my DH comes from a family where open conflict is just not countenanced, where a raised voice is seen as a disaster. He experienced it as very repressive, & the idea that there's no aggression just because it's not openly expressed is odd.

My MIL in particular is an expert at passive aggression - she can say incredibly nasty things & then do the "keep your hair on" shocked act if taken to task, even when that's done calmly & assertively & without shouting. It's definitely a control mechanism for her, a way for her to spill her bile so that it seems safe & so there's no comeback. Personally I'd much rather someone just snapped at me, but I guess we're all different.

Pagwatch, are you me? :) I think you have hit the nail on the head. I am anxious. Terribly so, and recent events have made me worse. I too tend to vocalise and say exactly what I think, then regret it later. I have to bite my tongue often and hard. Maybe it is draining, though I don't intend for it to be.

Are you on any medication for your anxiety? My therapist says I am not at the level where I need medication, and recommends other tactics. I am not big on meds myself, but perhaps I shd seek a second opinion.

Youmakemydreams I don't think my needs are second place, to be honest. If I sound like I am tying myself up in knots, it's probably cos I think I lack some level of EQ. I would agree with the majority of posters here that if anyone is in the wrong, it's me.

Logg1E My mom, to some extent, I suppose, and whom I love dearly. It's only the people I love which is twisted, I know. I suppose I spend more time with them and expect more of them, unlike work colleagues.