How do I respond to this email from DH?

[catgirl1976]

DH and I have some problems. I think a few people on here might remember some of them and some of MN have the strong opinion that DH is not good for me.

However, I do love him. But I am exhausted and unhappy.

I tried to talk to him last night and this morning found the email below in my inbox.

I just don't know how to reply, or what I want. Well I do. I want things back the way they were and I want a partner.

Does anyone have any advice on how I should respond?

Hello Cat,

It guts me to see you so unhappy. It really wasn't the intention. You see there was a time when we had fun and I thought it rocked. So much so I didn't want anything to interrupt that. But you wanted a baby and reluctantly I acquiesced. Thank the stars I did. Look at DS! He is incredible and amazing.

That doesn't help you though. (Actually it should but lets move on from that).

You are right, I have changed. I have grown older, and also commercially very cynical. My entire life I have been looking for happiness, I have actually found it in our DS. I never expected this and certainly didn't ask for it, but he has had a profound effect on my outlook on life.

Its a crime that you were forced (in part by me I guess) back to work so early. I do agree you have drawn the shitty end of a long stick. The answer is simple, that being get a new job. However I fear you will be unhappy wherever you are. Certainly XX despite its shortcomings is far better than any company I have had the grace to work for. I also admit that's not saying much.

You are 100% Correct in that I could do more around the house. I hope you acknowledge the increased effort I have been putting into this. An example would be tidying up even though I have DS. Yes I could do more, but I am sure you can relate to the amount of demands he makes on one and given that its easy to procrastinate. However that said I will increase my productivity and I hope it makes life easier for you.

For me though the nub is that I feel as out of place as you do. I have said repeatedly that I would love to do your job, hell I have even advised you on it (Not that you really need it, you are more than competent, I was just trying to help). The fact of the matter is that at the ripe old age of forty I have no other trade than selling. Between you, me and the gatepost, I cannot and will not return to the environment that I used to inhabit. I cant. Call it burnt out, mid life crisis, or laziness. I simply cannot do that anymore. As I have stated, i would rather clean toilets.

Maybe I should clean toilets. It would be fairer of course to contribute financially. However the one thing that does bring me a modicum of prestige is DS. I have worked so hard (and enjoyed it, a luxury you don't have in your vocation) to help and develop him. I think I am just in being proud of my Son, regardless of bias.

You are right, I do need friends and interests outside this house. However in my experience the Muppets I worked with tended to be the opposite of my outlook in every way. A notable exception would be XX. That said I don't expect to find many “XX's” in any job I stand a snowballs chance of getting.

I can see how hard you are working and pushing yourself. Its obvious that the gas tank it empty and its not sustainable. I will do whatever I can to help, with recourse to the above. I cannot fix your career.

I cannot be the the dude you fell in love with either. I'm older, slower (still quick) and jaded. But the two aspects of my life where I raise a smile are (in order) TDS and you. You are exhausted, mentally, physically and emotionally. Its not surprising give the amount of responsibility on your shoulders. It means everything to me to be able to help, but DS means everything to me too, and I want to have a real, fundamental impact on him and be the father I never had. In a nutshell that means forsaking everything for him.

I don't want to forsake you though. However if we are at the point where you simply don't see why you married me, or that dude that looked you up (and down) in halls then I get it. I am not a parasite and will bow out with as much honour as I can muster.

I love you and always will, but I cant stand seeing you this unhappy. I do believe we can grow from this position, however I respect your feelings too and If that isn't a decision you subscribe to I understand.

I Love you, and pray that is enough.

x

"I Love you, and pray that is enough."

What a shit. Please don't reply to him. Just leave him before "his love" destroys you.

I don't post much, but I do lurk and I remember your other threads.

I think the problem here is so many words, but not enough actions, and that applies to both of you. His email is a disgraceful offer to keep everything the same,and while you threaten action you haven't done it.
I am a SAHM. I do a little bit of paid work, and our DD goes to nursery for a few hours a week. We share household tasks, but I do most of it. DH puts DD to bed, while I cook, that sort of thing. He is respectful of what I do, and wants us all to be happy.

I am not trying to rub your nose in it here, because it wasn't always like that. During pregnancy, and for the first six months of our daughters life he became an awful person. He was nasty to me, worked all the time and didn't cope with the transition to parenthood well.

I wrote countless heartfelt emails, had large amounts oftalking, but it didn't work.

So I left when DD was six months old.

It was a shock to him. I wouldn't put up with it. After the first few days of freedom, he realised he'd made a terrible mistake. I built my own life, but when I was sure he was genuine, I started to date him again. We moved back in part time a year after I left, and full time a year after that. He had changed his tune completely, and the change has been permanent. Our marriage is better now.

None of that would have been possible without my amazing parents, but the point I was making was that a huge action from me was required to get change, and it was only when he realised that I didn't care about getting back with him and what he lost that he worked hard to prove I could trust him. Words did not work.

Depression makes you feel lethargic. However depression can be ameliorated with medication and therapy. If he isn't improving and that is the excuse for his selfishness HE needs to take responsibility for addressing his condition.

Personally I find exercise and fresh air on of the best way to improve - if he spent on on his many free days outside running or even on a long walk he'd get better quicker. Sitting in front of a console is not going to help him.

I totally sympathise. I have been there with H many times with the proviso that he was actually working out of the home thought always earning less than me. However I never really accepted that working the same hours as me meant it was OK to do nothing in the house and leave it all to me.

If he is serious about improving I would suggest you insist on a few points:

1. Send DS to nursery only one day a week or cut it out completely.
2. THe days H is child-free he spends one of them cleaning the house thoroughly.
3. One of the other days he goes running - start of with NHS Couch to 5K if he isn't used to it. He can also run a few evenings. It's not for fun, it's treatment. If he gets to enjoy it that's a bonus.
4. Use some of the nursery fees to pay a cleaner that will do some of the less obvious jobs like cleaning the skirting boards and washing down the kitchen cupboards. This point is not to save him from effort but purely to ensure your peace of mind because if you are like me it doesn't matter WHO does the work as long as you have a clean environment. That matters more than any principles to me.

Or alternatively ask him to leave as you want to be with an equal partner not an extra burden.

He won't ever change, why would he?
He does what he likes when he likes. He won't give that up.

Oh god

Please catgirl, please take this opportunity to get him out. I have read your previous threads.

The only thing that will get him to grow up is to be out on his ear. Honestly. You have (unwittingly) enabled his bone-idleness for too long it will be impossible to unlearn his behaviour gradually.

Tell him that if he sorts himself out and shows he can be a grown-up, maybe you'll get back together. Would that make it more bearable for you too? Call it a trial separation?

Your return email will have no effect whatsoever. A man who gets to the age of 40 and behaves like this will not change because of your email. You matter very little to him and the little that does matter is the bit that indulges him in his parasitic behaviour.

You have to stop considering him and start thinking of your son. What is the point of any of your exhaustion and hard work if at the end your son turns out like him. And your son will treat you exactly the same as he does.

He has beaten you down, not with fists but somehow he has you in such a vulnerable state.

I would suggest you separate. Work on you until you discover why those of us reading your posts are so aghast and upset on your behalf.

haha, my ex sil was just the same! it took years for dd to wake up, well he found another mug/slave. but, he will destroy you.
finish it now, before you end up a physical and emotional total mess.
sorry to be so blunt, but I have witnessed this type abuse, as that is what it is..........,total abuse...............

be focused on YOU and your needs.
it ain't gonna work, you must know that.
where will you be in five years time, my guess is still on mumsnet, or worse.
no more self justifying emails, this isn't about him, his needs/wants. take control of your life please.

Hello again OP!

Ok, now that I have calmed down a bit...

Please please separate. From all that you've said, EVERYONE - even him - will be better off. Most of all, your wee DS will be much, much better off. Separate NOW, while he's small, and he will have a better, more nurturing childhood and a better set of role models.

Right now, this is an enabling situation. Your DH is a lazy shit. Most people who would like to be completely lazy shits don't get the chance to, because they are forced to work/run a home/have sole care of babies etc. So they end up being better people than they would have been. It's a bit like the classic 'waster trust fund kid' thing. You are your DH's trust fund. As long as you are together, your DH will be a lazy, manipulative, basically fairly despicable sod that no child will ever grow up respecting. Leave him, and he will HAVE to step up - at least, run his own life - and there is a slim chance your DS will instead see a dad who does stuff, who has a job, who has friends, a dad who doesn't sit in a dressing gown all day having his food brought to him.

There's no way you can stay with him and achieve the same. His email sets out his stall: oooh very sorry but that's me huh, I won't really change. But look, I can put a wash on now!!

No. It's too entrenched. You WON'T be able to change it if you stay together.

And then there's you. On one hand your DS right now is set to learn that dads sit around with their balls hanging out playing games and being utter shits. While mums are domestic slaves who also take the weight of the family on their shoulders for no thanks. Apart from the fact that if you carry on like this you're going to have a breakdown, right now the role model your DS is going to see in you is barely better than what he'll see from his dad.

Leaving will be hell because, unlike his manipulative letter, your P won't like the thought of his own personal slave actually disappearing. That email is supposed to get you to back down, not actually go. So he will probably kick off. It's so worth it though. You'll be happier. Your son will have so much better a situation. And even though he doesn't know it, your leaving would be the only way your P will ever work or become a useful member of society again.

So go. Go go go.

He doesn't love you. He loves himself and his idle lifestyle.

If he loved you he would treat you with kindness and respect and wouldn't allow you to be heading full tilt towards a nervous breakdown.

He is self-absorbed, lazy and selfish. He's a sponger and a freeloader. He can't even be categorised as a SAHD - he just does the SAH part.

I think you're not only exhausted but depressed and I'm not surprised; life can be so much better than this catgirl, you know it can.

He sounds depressed to me.
How about mailing him a link to this thread? It's bound to change his outlook on things.

Hi Cat, God I feel so cross on your behalf.

You poor, poor thing, I am not surprised you are at breaking point.

His email is creepy and frightening on so many levels.

I think you've ended up with a really manipulative heel.

I am not trying to belittle physically violent relationships in any way (I was in one in my early 20's and it nearly destroyed me) but frankly if he was hitting you, you'd at least be more aware of the aggression being directed at you.

Firstly, have you not noticed that he is secretly telling you off? All the way through the email? Like you are a naughty puppy?

Secondly, from this email he doesn't love you. He is jealous and envious of you and either dislikes you or hates you, presumably for what you reflect him to be. There is so much anger and manipulation here I don't know where to start.

"It guts me to see you so unhappy.... But you wanted a baby and reluctantly I acquiesced"

Translation: you pushed for this situation, it is your fault you are unhappy.

"the two aspects of my life where I raise a smile are (in order) TDS and you."
Translation: you are not my priority. Who the fuck rates their preferences like this and puts his wife second and then tells her???

"You are right, I do need friends and interests outside this house. However in my experience the Muppets I worked with tended to be the opposite of my outlook in every way"
Translation: I have absolutely no intention of getting a job because the people who I'll meet won't be special and different like me, and I don't want to put myself in a situation where my outlook will be challenged by real people The fact that he calls those working for a living supporting their families 'muppets' says it all really.

"You are exhausted, mentally, physically and emotionally... It means everything to me to be able to help, but DS means everything to me too.. that means forsaking everything for him"
Translation: I can see what my behaviour has done to you, but really I'm going to carry on anyway, as I have DS to use as a shield to explain away my inactivity

Do not believe him when he says if you decide to separate, he will bow out gracefully...he will be mean and aggressive and try and fuck you over to hold onto his lifestyle....I think you are dealing with a dangerous man.

I would get specialist legal advice as soon as possible.

I know you don't want to finish things, and want to try and work them out, but please do it just as a safety blanket if nothing else....

I know you can't see it but I fear you are walking into a trap which could involve your DH getting resident custody with you paying for it, you working in the same way but with no DS to come home to. A really experienced solicitor will give you a great strategy, but to begin with

1. DO NOT ALLOW DH MORE DAYS WITH DS as part of a him doing more to help exercise. You need to start cutting out those two days he has him currently as a matter of urgency. Ask your family to help you either with more childcare or with financial assistance in paying for more days at nursery. You can tell DH this is happening because he needs to concentrate his time on getting a job so that you can reduce your hours.

1. You need to start making a consistent narrative that will help you get what you want. Don't be drawn into any reply to any text email etc without being clear what narrative it is you need to put forward. I would suggest the following as a good starting point:-

a). you are worried about your DP's severe depression, his inability to leave the house/ have any social interaction etc and of course what effect this might be having on your son.

b). You are worried that he is placing undue emotional stress and pressure on your DS by looking to him as his source of self esteem.

c) You are worried about DS seeing you so disrespected and downtrodden by DH and what effect this will have on him....you need to start counteracting this dad of the year bollocks as a matter of urgency.

Cat, don't link him to this thread. I should think this is quite a refuge for you.

I haven't read any of your other posts but my first thought on reading that email was 'what a prat'. Is he as self absorbed and full of himself as he comes across? Well your later posts would suggest that yes, he is.

My opinion would be that he needs to grow up. Harbouring cliched dreams about being 'the dude you fell in love with' (who talks like that?!) and claiming nobody is good enough to be his friend and thinking that he's somehow above working while watching you break your back - well my first impression still stands.

I was trying to be objective and see this as it would be the other way round - if a wife was SAHM and the husband working all the hours then coming home and running the house as well. Maybe it does happen but I can't imagine it. Nobody should have to put up with such an unequal partnership - because that's what marriage is, a partnership, not a half-arsed effort on one side and someone who's too knackered to think on the other.

If his depression is causing this he needs to get help. Maybe if he genuinely thought his marriage was on the line he would but I don't think he does - the tone of that email suggests he thinks that you'll be won over by his cliched sappy self-righteousness and realise how unreasonable you are being .

Blimey, he needs a kick up the backside! I think ormirians' points are excellent. But you really need to force the issue. Give him, say, six weeks to do the things ormirian says whilst you make real concrete plans to leave. If he hasn't actually changed in that time, then just go.

I used to get this type of stuff from my STBXH - he used to say he loved me etc. but he didn't act as if he loved me. It's easy to say the words, but you need to show your partner respect and to make the effort to make your life as a couple good, and that is with both of you feeling fulfilled and happy.

Your Dh is all about his own happiness, how he shouldn''t have to do any thing he doesn't like, never mind your happiness and you being fulfilled.

Sorry but he sounds like a selfish entitled bastard (and I know its hard when you love one of those, but you have to think of how you can be happy in your life)

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Cailin's translation is spot on, this is what he means. It's a horrible, passive-aggressive, vicious little missive.

That doesn't help you though. (Actually it should but lets move on from that).

This is the point where he gives himself away as a manipulative, dishonest prick.

That translation again (this is what you should read over and over. Not the shite he sent you.):

I am unhappy that you are unhappy.

Our relationship was great but then you wanted a baby and I gave in. It turns out that I think being a dad is great and you should be grateful for that but you're not.

Anyway in spite of the fact that I didn't want DS he makes me happy.

You had to go back early to a job you hate and while you will say that's my fault I think it's your problem. Why are you complaining? Your company isn't as bad as the one I worked for and anyway you can always find a new job.

I consider the fact that I look after ds two days a week a huge achievement. I know you expect more but looking after him is hard and you should be grateful that I manage to tidy up around him.

I refuse to get a job, I think looking afte DS two days a week is enough.

I will help you with housework. I won't take any responsibility for it though.

I know you want me to have friends but I have no intention of doing anything about it.

I know you are utterly exhausted and have too much responsibility but I don't want to do anything besides looking after DS two days a week. I didn't have a dad, remember? Think about that.

I know when you met me you thought I was great. I'm not. Tough luck.

That's the way things are. You can leave if you want. But remember, the decision will be on your head.

DO NOT ALLOW DH MORE DAYS WITH DS as part of a him doing more to help exercise. You need to start cutting out those two days he has him currently as a matter of urgency. Ask your family to help you either with more childcare or with financial assistance in paying for more days at nursery. You can tell DH this is happening because he needs to concentrate his time on getting a job so that you can reduce your hours.

And this. Definitely, definitely this.

Omg. What an absolute knob. He doesn't even sound nice.

Seriously. I don't think I've ever said this before, but you need to leave. Even if temporarily. This guy is a NIGHTMARE.

Catgirl, your e-mail is actually very good if you delete the first 3 paragraphs and the last 2.

Do NOT tell him he's a fantastic father - he's not.

Do NOT tell him you love him and always will - he's relying on that very fact to ensure you will allow his behaviour to continue.

Do NOT let him deflect your marital problems/his laziness onto the issues about your job.

Send him that middle section of your e-mail - you are tiptoeing around him far too much. Playing computer games or 3 days a week and unable to do the shopping or laundry? Unbelievable! At the very least point him towards Ocado!

You tried to talk to him last night - this is his response. He's basically telling you to shut the fuck up.

You can't change him - but you can change this dreadful situation.
And it IS dreadful.

I don't know the situation, but what strikes me from both your emails is that you have no empathy for each other. I don't think a marriage can work in these circumstances.

He cannot feel for you and what you're going through.

You have your standards and want him to be like you.

In terms of his email to you, I would be hurt if dh said the kids made him smile more than I do (even if it's true).

I am the SAHP in our house. This is how I would take your email. "You think I'm rubbish because because I don't do things the way you do them."

Yes, he needs to take more responsibility - certainly day to day food shop and plan. No, he does need to clean the toilet as often as you would, or clean the inside of the cupboards.

I think things are getting confused here between him running the house IN THE WAY HE WANTS TO, and running the house in the way you want him to. Yes, he has 3 days per week to do stuff. At the moment, he doesn't do enough and needs to do more, for sure. However, going on about wiping cupboards etc. is not going to work imo.

I haven't read your other threads or know the back story, but my reaction to that email was "oh do fuck off!".
Load of self indulgent shite.

This is how I would take your email. "You think I'm rubbish because because I don't do things the way you do them."

He IS rubbish.

He's a massive, lazy pisstaker who NEVER cleans the bathroom.

Jesus, there's always one who will try to pretend that male laziness and expectation of female skivvies is "just different standards".

This prick has 3 days off per week and he spends them playing computer games.

While his wife has had a breakdown because she can't cope with all the work she has to do.

That's "doing things differently" or "different standards of housework".

It's different standards of being a decent human being.

And his standards are way below what is acceptable.

I don't want to use mental illness as an excuse, but it is an illness. It does impact people around it as well. I do feel like people are not taking this into account. Is there anyone on here who has been depressed chronically? Have you posted about your dh in mental health and seen what people there think? I think many of the responses are all assuming he is absolutely fine. It's very hard for anyone to live with mental illness and I wouldn't blame the OP for wanting out. But hard for him too (perhaps I am too forgiving). I notice he doesn't really reference the depression in his letter. Does he accept it about himself? I think he needs to recognise it and then recognise what will help, whether that is cleaning toilets or voluntary work.