Sleep-sex?

[GollyGosh1]

Have only registered to post this topic after chatting to a friend who is on mn and will probably be reading this, though she won't tell me her 'name'.

Anyway, I was telling my friend how earlier this week I woke in the middle of the night with my husband's fingers all over me, and inside me. Should stress that I'm very happy with him and was very happy for us both to enjoy a sleepy fondle and then, well, go back to sleep! Only the second time this has happened in ten years but it's been fun both times.

Anyway, mentioned this to my friend as thought it was quite funny and was surprised at her response. She felt strongly that I'd been abused (despite being good friends with my husband) on the basis I hadn't consented. We chatted/argued (in a good natured way) for a while and in the end agreed that I'd post this message to see what others thought.

Also, Matilda, if he assaulted you by accident, he should be mortified and would immediately go and sleep in another room so that he couldn't easily assault you.

Ok, yes I do see what you are all saying. He was never remorseful about having done it with supposedly no control, so never moved to sleep elsewhere. I hate the fact that I still find this stuff confusing. But thanks.

He's responsible for ascertaining consent. You describe being cross with him a number of times. I fail to see how he could argue a defence of reasonable belief in consent which really is the supposed grey area you're worrying about. That defence is about whether someone should be found criminally liable and lose their liberty.

Really it isn't something you should be concerned with. You were violated. You did not consent and you expressed clearly that you didn't consent. How culpable you feel he is or isn't does not undo those hurts and doesn't help you heal from the very real thing that happened to you.

One thing we can say with great certainty (although it shouldn't be relevant) is that you definitely did nothing wrong and why should you bear the brunt of the harm?

Hope you are ok, MW

I can see how it might make your mid rest easier if you can still think he didn't have intent. But I am afraid he did.

*mind

That comet in the sky analogy was bloody brilliant if I say so myself.

Has the OP Gollygosh1 actually checked in to this thread at all in the last few pages? Or is it just a case of lighting the touch paper and standing well back while we squabble?

Does it matter, ProfessorDent ?

have you picked up at all that other posters are getting support from this thread ?

Ok ok my post came out about wrong. Ill talk about MY relationship so not to generalise- I meant that in my loving and trusting relationship we do not stop and verbally ask permission before touching each other. There.

I'd rather know if i'm about to have anything inside my body. I'm sure most people would.

I speak as another who woke to find an ex boyfriend masturbating me. He denied it. I still to this day dont know how many times it happened ir even the full extent if what happened to my body. That's not right.

Evening.

Many thanks to those who have pointed this thread out to us.

We do ask that you respect others, even if you don't share their opinions.

We also have a web page of common myths surrounding rape, which may be useful. we believe you

it isn't about asking for verbal permission. That is explicit consent but there is also presumed consent.

It is about what you have done to ascertain consent.

A sleeping person cannot consent because they are not conscious.

If you decide you want to touch or penetrate them sexually then you need to wake them up and ascertain consent because not doing that is a sexual assault. Technically.

It may work out fine if, as in the case of the op, the other person turns out to be happy with it and enjoys it but when you touch them whilst unconscious, in most situations, you cannot know that will be how they feel.

I don't think anyone has said that actually.

People are approaching this from the wrong direction when they talk about people who enjoy a sleepy fondle - there is a huge difference between a sleepy fondle and being penetrated whilst asleep though.

I'm simply trying to say it is extremely important to properly understand the law on consent when you are considering doing anything sexual to a sleeping person because that sleeping person cannot consent and may feel violated on waking, and they have a legal and moral right to that feeling.

"I've read a few posts on here where people are actually trying to convince those who do experience a sleepy fondle and enjoy it that they are being abused - that's not right!"

They do sound a lot like the OP's "friend" IMO.

Some people clearly struggle with the idea of two people knowing, loving and trusting each other.

The problem for me though was that I supposedly did love and trust my ex because we were in a relationship and did have consensual sex regularly too. Another thing he said was how it was a fantasy of his to have sex whilst I was asleep. I was made to feel like I was just being a bit mean to him because I didn't like it. I was supposedly holding back our sex life, not being 'spontaneous' enough.

What you are saying about consent Offred would mean that you would say that no man with that fantasy can indulge it, presumably, unless agreed beforehand?

Some people clearly struggle with the idea of two people knowing, loving and trusting each other.

Not at all, but for me loving and trusting each other means trusting that they won't penetrate me while I'm asleep, nor will I do anything to them that they might say no if they are asleep.

That's what I mean about coming from it in the wrong direction set.

You always have to understand the law on consent.

It isn't correct that if you felt violated you would know it is wrong as evidenced by other posts on the thread. Sexual abuse is extremely confusing.

However the assault is not legally determined by whether the person feels violated or not. That may determine a complaint. The assault is determined by the touching of someone who doesn't consent. It is the person doing the touching who must understand that if they touch someone who is asleep (not sleepy - big difference) then they do not know how that person will feel about that and the may have violated their trust and be able to be legally prosecuted.

It is not so much about the legal understanding of the sleeping person.

Matilda - yes, obviously, it isn't just men who enjoy that fantasy either.

I think it is worth exploring what that fantasy really is. If it ruins it to get consent either by waking the person prior to touching them or by discussing it before going to sleep? It can only be a fantasy where the enjoyment IS not having consent and I think this is something that a partner of that person should be very concerned about.

It is not acceptable to fantasise and get sexually excited by non-consensual sex.

And please let's make a very firm distinction between sexually touching a person who is asleep and having sleepy sex.

Clearly if it turns out as it did with the op then that is ok for all involved. However, as I said before whether I enjoyed it or not, whether I felt comfortable with it or not on that occasion I would still have niggling concerns that my intimate partner did not see a problem with sexually touching me without having my consent.

Besides, many people don't realise they are in an abusive relationship until the abuse is clamorous. It creeps up gradually.

Just because someone considers themselves to be in a loving trusting relationship, it doesn't mean that they actually are.

MW, the fact that you had consensual sex with him at other times has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is classed as assault when you are asleep

That is also very clear in rape legislation

I mean really you can surely understand it this way;

The difference between a rape fantasy and actual rape is consent.

With my bf this is why we discuss it before falling asleep, he's also quite sensitive to my reactions, he often checks that I'm ok throughout. It doesn't ruin it because the fun is derived from it being pretend. Sometimes we don't maintain the acting and it ends up more like a loving experience than a sex game, often he collapses into I love yous and cuddling.

If we haven't discussed it and either of us is awake and horny then we will wake the other up before groping them.

That's what makes it clear that it is role playing/fantasy and respectful consensual sex. It involves self awareness and respect for each other. I don't expect that he'd particularly appreciate me shoving my fingers up him while he was sleeping (even though he may well enjoy that) and I don't see why it should be any different for women.