Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: thread 27

[CharlotteCollinsinherownplace]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

durr - should say I'm up too

What does dd3 feel about going away charlotte?

She always always says that she wants to stay with me, if I mention any contact. Or that she loves me, which implies the same thing! She's only 3, though. Leaving Mummy is a big deal. I think she's ok once she's with FW - she seems happy when I pick her up at the end of contact, and now contact is only 2 nights not 3 at the weekend, she seems more settled. Not much, but a bit.

So given that she's not managing 3 nights at once, I don't see how I can in all conscience dump her on him for 8. It's far far too long.

But I have known about this holiday for a while now and have been avoiding talking about it. I suppose, though, that it's legitimate to wait and see how she is responding to contact before making a decision? Iyswim?

Yes, that's the scary thing, bounty - that if it's too much for her (not that I would find out if that were the case, because FW would not recognise it) - that I can't pick her up for whatever reason after a few days. It's all or nothing.

I suppose you probably should have spoken about it sooner. Not criticising - I'm a head in the sand-er and would probably have done the same thing. I think it is perhaps how we have developed to avoid conflict for as long as possible, knowing that speaking up for ourselves will cause an instant sulk (or worse) rather than an adult discussion. But I would prepare myself for FW saying that you should have said something earlier.

But I also think you would be correct in saying that you needed to see how contact was working out before committing to it. I think I remember in the summer FW took the DC away somewhere in the UK for a few days. Did DD3 go in the end or not?

And if she can't manage 3 nights then no way should he even expect her to manage 8. Is there any chance that he might be secretly relieved (though would obviously not let on) if she didn't go with him - as it's likely to make his holiday easier?

Yes hopefully what bounty said there ^

muff glad it went ok.

Noregrets i think get legal advice.also does dd have her own phone? If so, she might actually be relieved if you took.it away from her if he using it to manipulate her. Might make you the bad guy temporarily but if she is unable to phone him then she is relieved of the responsibility of disobeyinig him.

charlotte can you frame it in terms he might buy more easily? e.g.you might have a better time with the other dc ifdd3 does not go as you know she struggles sometimes away from familiar surrounding. it might be best for you for her and for the older dc if she stays here.

Although it is your call maybe that is pandering to him rather than setting a boundary.

if she does go she would probably suffer no lasting harm from a one off but it strengthens his case fir more contact than she can handle and the unsettling nature of that going on week after week would be more destabilizing.
as always interests of dc should come first.

You are perfectly entitled to change your mind, especially when it concerns the welfare of your child. At any time.

It may be perceived as manipulative by the FW, I suppose, and as using his child against him. But you know this is not the case.

He might be secretly relieved at not having charge of a 3 yr old for 8 days... and as mink says, if she goes they would survive unscathed if it's a one off (FW might even learn something)

The initial conversation was all by text, I think - a message (text or email) which got lost and I never saw (sent from some farflung corner of the earth, so it is possible that it did get lost, but also possible that he forgot to send it), followed by a "need an answer to my message, prices are going up" text, followed a few hours later (or less?) by "Too late, I've booked it before I lost more money." I'm a bit hazy about details as I don't have records of the texts any more. (Ha - I've not been keeping texts as there's no obvious FWery in them; there seemed no point. It is possible I don't actually see FWery when it's right there in front of me.)

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I'm a bit "meh" about it being late in the day to say something, as it would have been too late weeks ago, too, given the window of opportunity I had to give my opinion. I never did say this is ok by me, but saying nothing is usually taken as implied consent with FW, I have realised.

"Probably no lasting harm" is what I have been telling myself in the brief moments I have thought about it before stuffing my head back in the sand. It does seem like an abdication of responsibility, and too risky. Physical harm has occasionally happened to small DCs in his care (1yo not strapped into buggy falling out, 2yo scalded on kettle left boiling within toddler's reach, 2yo lost in busy place, 2yo with significant wound only taken to doctor at my insistence despite high temperature and floppiness). Those are the only incidents I can think of but they do make me worry. I was thinking there was nothing in the past three years or so, but actually he left an iron in an empty room that DD3 was playing in and out of, and that was this year. He's not stupid, but he does expect children to think just like adults. And kind of thinks it's their fault if they don't. It does seem to be small DCs that are particularly at risk.

Right, I seem to have talked myself into a decision. Unfortunately, it's their alternative Christmas Day tomorrow and I am worried about mentioning this before then as it might cast a cloud over their day.

"an iron on in an empty room", I mean.

Is it helpful to think "what's the worst thing he can do when I say that dd3 won't be going"? I used to do this and it helped me.

I'd imagine he'll moan, accuse you of being unfair, tell him you're manipulating (Or controlling if he's my FW!!) DD3, threaten to not let you take DD3 away and throw a sulk.

So, given as you're not in a relationship with him and not living with him none of those things really matter. Not being fair is something that a 7 yr old moans about in the playground. You know you're doing it for DD3 rather than for you so you're not manipulating and so who cares if he claims that you are. Your main reason for her not going is that she is not used to being away from you for large chunks of time - so not going away with you in the future is a stupid pointless argument. And if he sulks.... well let him - it'll reduce the FWery for a while.

I think the fact that he didn't get a reply to a text and booked it anyway to save money actually means he was the unreasonable one right at the start. My FW wouldn't do that now (Although admittedly he is now being super nice). But I don't think he would have done that before. He would definitely have followed it up but would have phoned so that he could hassle me directly and get an instant answer to make sure that I had got the message.

Timing wise - I suppose the sooner the better. Could you send a testing the water email today saying that you need to talk about the upcoming holiday. That you need to know the travel plans and where they will be staying and that you also need to discuss whether it's appropriate for DD3 to go.

I don't know whether this would be a bad thing as it would give him time to prepare a counter-argument. Also I suppose it does imply that it is still up to discussion and so open you up for lots of FWery as he thinks there is a chance of talking you round.

Actually I've talked myself out of that idea! Better would be to send him an email after you've collected them saying that DD3 will not be coming and listing your (perfectly valid) reasons. You could apologise for it being so late in the day, but say that as he had booked the flights without giving you chance to consider or discuss it, you thought that you might as well see how the contact with DD3 panned out. But unfortunately the fact that the 3 night stays have needed to be cut to 2 nights you can now see that it would be unfair on DD3 at this current time.

Yes that is what I'd do. I'd be interested to see what others think as I'm new to the FW negotiation stage!!

I think Charlotte, you can say that, given that DD3 has had difficulty settling and is now better settled with two nights contact, it is inappropriate for her to travel abroad for 8 days. It will jeopardise the security she has with the current contact arrangements and undo the work you both have put into that.

That is a reasonable argument and one which is justifiably in her best interests. You can say extended holiday contact can be worked towards by extending her overnightswhen she is ready.

You do not need to explain or justify the lack of previous comment on this, you can say you have become concerned about it as it became obvious she was not coping with longer contact.

That is the immediate issue. The other is that he cannot book holidays without your consent and he cannot take dc out the country without your consent, so the whole trip has been badly handled by him (deliberately). When you get to mediation, or before, this is something you need your sol to address for future reference. You can be clear you are only consenting re older dc as a gesture of goodwill, but the lack of consultation should not be taken as a precedent for the future.

I too would let alternative Christmas day pass first then tell him that she ain't going. it is layer in the day anyway so a day later makes no odds and gives him.less time to martial arguments.

Try to sell it a bit on the will be easier for you front.
You May also need to sell it to dd3 on the they are going away and while they are away it is just you and me...lets do x.

I also think it is perfectly legitimate to say dd3 needs some one on one after recent upheaval and also to say( if you think it is safe) he could have some one on one with her too at a later date- he May find safety easier to priorities with only one??

Is anyone else also struggling with being so angry at fw?

Argh he was 40 minutes late and I shouted at him in front of the kids just can't help myself urgh.

oh muff so glad you said that - how about throwing brick through his windows was my latest dark thoughts; very glad their gone now!

Fantastically helpful posts, thank you bounty, coach and Mink. I shall write something that is a combination of all three, I think - but not until tomorrow night, of course!

He has admitted to one activity recently being hard with all four of them and is hoping to do it on hol, too - so that should help with selling the idea that it will be easier for him. I shall also mention that it makes no difference to maintenance payments, as that seemed to help last time.

Muff, you've probably got hormones sloshing all over the place (hmm, delightful image, sorry), so be kind to yourself. Were the DCs upset that he was late or was it just you?

Sprite, I don't think thoughts like that are bad of themselves. It wouldn't be helpful to dwell on them, but allow them to flow in and out of your mind when necessary.

No it was just me upset.

I could soo throw a brick or key his bloody car

I hate him I really really hate him. If someone said to me I can get rid of him for you I'd bite their arm off right now. Hte hate hate hate hate hate him. Everything he's done to me an I have to wave off my dc to him urgh

I think the aim muff is to reach a state of indifference so that they mean so little to you that you barely register a feeling. I suspect going through the hate stage is a necessary way to get there.

just catching up with you all

muff hope you are being kind to yourself. the last few months you have gone through a lot and you deserve kindness.

I have dropped DC's off at their grandparents where they will be until Boxing Day and am now back at my mum and dads. sounds nice but it actually feels ludicrously hollow. I miss them terribly and it broke my heart leaving them. I cried all the way home. I cry for all the things which could have and should have been. We should be there as a family with FW's lovely parents having a magical Christmas. It would never have happened like that though so the reality is a different thing. I cry for SO wanting to love him and just wanting the same in return but also at the thought of being on my own. I developed a ludicrous crush on a friend of mine (who a stupidly slept with 2 weeks ago) and have since found out he is seeing someone else. We are going away with some friends (about 10 of us) for new year and he is taking this girl. All of this is just transference on my part and it is just a way of not focussing on what is really happening in my life.
I know I need to learn how to be by myself but currently it is a terrifying thought. I think I am tired.

just catching up with you all

muff hope you are being kind to yourself. the last few months you have gone through a lot and you deserve kindness.

I have dropped DC's off at their grandparents where they will be until Boxing Day and am now back at my mum and dads. sounds nice but it actually feels ludicrously hollow. I miss them terribly and it broke my heart leaving them. I cried all the way home. I cry for all the things which could have and should have been. We should be there as a family with FW's lovely parents having a magical Christmas. It would never have happened like that though so the reality is a different thing. I cry for SO wanting to love him and just wanting the same in return but also at the thought of being on my own. I developed a ludicrous crush on a friend of mine (who a stupidly slept with 2 weeks ago) and have since found out he is seeing someone else. We are going away with some friends (about 10 of us) for new year and he is taking this girl. All of this is just transference on my part and it is just a way of not focussing on what is really happening in my life.
I know I need to learn how to be by myself but currently it is a terrifying thought. I think I am tired.

Oh tweedle I feel so much the same way that's why I'm so angry. If he wasn't such a cunt...

It is horrible, having to spend time without the DCs. FW complains that I have got everything I want and he loses everything, but what he refuses to notice is that he is seeing more of the DCs than he was before and I am seeing less. Seeing their beds empty is the worst thing.

Having said that, I have had a lovely day today, by myself. I have been out shopping, gone for a walk, bumped into three people I know and had a brief chat... I realised at about 4pm that I used to feel relief at that time of day: I've got through the day this far, not long to go now, then a little rest before the next one. Now I have things I want to do and am happily filling up the day. It's weird to think that I am the same person underneath at times like that!

how did I post that twice? sorry.
charlotte it sounds like you are beginning to find pieces of your old self. I hope the future feels brighter for all the things you have planned for yourself.

it really is horrid. I feel really flat - I guess that is to be expected and I need to enjoy this time as much as I can but I feel like curling up under a rock. I know I need to allow time to process these emotions and feel like myself.
muff exactly. It just breaks my heart to know that someone who I wanted to love and wanted to love me back was incapable. For the last 2 weeks I have carried on this behaviour with someone else too. I would like therapy for that issue alone as it is something I have done ALL my life. I hope one day to be loved by someone who is not a narcissist as looking back (only to yesterday) all my feelings, all the love I have given, I have given to narcissist. I don't hate FW and I am pretty much of the Hating Men mind set right now.