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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: thread 27

999 replies

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 04/11/2013 21:57

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

OP posts:
IAmMine · 06/01/2014 16:00

Hi back2, Ive had a visit today from ss....they have left a note through the door as I was at work.
school have reported it to them
as a precaution.
im slightly scared though...well a bit more than slightly!!!
Im glad in a way too because as you so rightly say we seem to think this is normal practice.
It isn't though is it? My df was v strict but never ever did he lose his temper to the point of actually hurting me!!
Ds isn't happy regarding ss but it becomes a question of whether its ok for exh to behave in that way and how ds sees it as the norm.
Thanks for your input back2

Back2Basics · 06/01/2014 16:03

I have no experience of ss this side of the coin Iam I think that they will need to see you can protect your son. I would ask them for help on whats reasonable and ask them if they feel this needs reporting. If you work with them it should all be ok and they might arrange counselling for your dc if yo think that would help. I would be shitting it by now but realistically the are there to help.

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 06/01/2014 19:54

Hi, sss. I have just read through your thread open-mouthed with horror. I was ignored for long periods in my marriage, but nothing like so deliberate, sustained and cruel. It beggars belief. Your poor DCs with that FW for a role-model. You say you have lots of family in the UK... would any of them put you and the DCs up for a short break? The journey might cost too much to make it feasible, but I'm sure the break would do you good. Oh, and I'm in awe of you as a HE - I HE'ed one of my four DCs for about three months and that was plenty for me!

Hi too to Crushed. Argh, the control! Why do they do it?? And you sound like you're being attacked from more than one direction. :( Have you reported the broken bail conditions?

IAm, good luck with SS.

tweedle, how about: Dear FW, Thank you for your suggestions. You can see the DCs every other weekend, or if you prefer, every other Saturday. They also need to have weekend time with me and I believe this arrangement to be the best for them that we can offer. We will discuss holidays and special days closer to the time.

That's what I'd say, I think. I feel confrontational in that "tone of voice", but I really don't know if it is or if I just think it is!

OP posts:
MinkBernardLundy · 06/01/2014 20:50

tweedle I would make your suggestion as outlined by charlotte and conclude with, if this is not suitable we can discuss alternatives at family mediation.

MinkBernardLundy · 06/01/2014 20:51

Or on fact, no, not alternatives- we cam discuss what is in the best interests of the dc at family mediation.

bountyicecream · 06/01/2014 23:50

sss glad you plucked up the courage to come here. That is step one on the road to freedom :) Have you had any chance to consider what you would like to happen?

Crushed welcome and well done for going to the police re the bail being broken. That might just send him the message that he cannot do exactly as he pleases.

Iam in a way the fact that SS are now involved is a good thing as it takes the decision out of your hands but at the same time sends a clear message to your FW that This is not acceptable behaviour.

tweedle good luck with the final countdown to getting out. THe above suggestions for the email are good. I always find it easier to repeatedly state 'it is in the DCs interest' or 'it is better for the DC' to keep reminding the FW what the contact is actually for. My only other bit of advice is to start low with the negotiations so you can appear reasonable when you bend a little his way

tweedlezee · 07/01/2014 09:34

Thank you ladies. I sent an email devoid of any emotion last night after your suggestions. He is very cross that I am not prepared to 'negotiate' on his terms. I am glad in many ways that someone outside of our toxic relationship can help us reach a conclusion. In his email he also mentioned how if we have a problem with each other we should talk it through in a neutral place. HOW ABOUT NO! This is not about us any more, it is about the kids seeing their Dad not about how we don't function.
I am feeling a lot stronger recently. I am trying not to give any kind of emotional reaction. It is really hard though because I am a very emotional person but I realise now that he exploits this at any opportunity.
I have put kids into nursery a day a week when I work to avoid relying on him to have them. I am basically building up a life where by he plays no part. I am determined that he has his time and I mine and the 2 will not cross over as much as is possible.
bounty I hear you about starting low. I have said every other weekend and one night a week as through research I have seen that this is what would be given through court. I would happily let him have them another night a week as I do feel that they should see him especially as we live so close to each other. but that will be for him to get out of me not for me to offer.
I AM NEARLY THERE!
HUGS to all the ladies still in the thick of it. My advice is to get talking. Talk to the people who love you, tell them how you feel. Allow them to help you, let go of that pride feeling because it is that feeling which means they can continue to exploit you - or at least it was for me.

tweedlezee · 07/01/2014 10:17

ooh and yes, we are off to mediation. his suggestion, he would never have gone if I had suggested it. he lives with the belief that mediation will mean everyone will agree with what he suggests but the world does not work like that (a FW world does though - how could they ever be wrong/challenged/contradicted?)
so my last email after a very lengthy one from me was, and this is very rewarding for me; Thank you, I await information regarding mediation. Thank you.

Nothing, I gave him nothing....he will be fuming. I don't care because after research and support from family I know I can do this. just give them nothing, it's their worst fear that you are able to dismiss them without reacting.

KouignAmann · 07/01/2014 12:03

He lives with the belief that mediation means everyone will agree with what he suggests

YY to this. Which is why the FW thinks all mediators solicitors and Relate counsellors are against him. They see two sides to an issue. He sees only one! That totally makes sense of my experience!! Thanks xx

lightinmyhead · 07/01/2014 19:03

Hi again everyone; sss I read your thread too and it's an awful situation he's put you in. I hope you are starting to feel a little stronger in yourself, knowing that it's not you, it's him. Tweedle, well done on your email! IAM, another one who is horrified that even 'not on purpose' your FW could do so much damage. I am sure SS will support your efforts and help you work out an appropriate course of action regarding contact. They (FWs) will only ever admit to the bare minimum they need to, won't they? And will not accept responsibility as it's always a response to someone else's 'bad' behaviour, even ifth at someone else is a child.

I thought, given we're on page 39, I should come back visibly. My H is being great at the moment but I know it's because I'm not challenging anything. As soon as I say anything that could be remotely perceived as critical, I get a full-on verbal attack, with a LOT of projection. But it means that even when things are nice, at best they are polite, which is not uncomfortable but certainly no way for a marriage to be fulfilling, if 'polite' is the absolute best on offer!

There ARE extenuating circumstances so I am not willing to write things off just yet, but this year is definitely make or break (well before the end of the year). We moved countries 4 years ago, from the UK to my home country (but not where I grew up) - I got offered a great job but it was he who instigated the move. He has a neurodegenerative condition which has worsened since we left London, but had brain surgery 18 months ago which has improved his symptoms out of sight, which is great. In the time we've been here, he's been unable to find work except for a four-month period when we first arrived. This has taken a toll on our standard of living but also very much on his self esteem, which I think is where the key problem is.

I am hoping that once he is working or studying (one or the other will be in place by March) that his self esteem will improve and we can then actually talk about / address some of the issues. We went to counselling last year but I found that he only took on board the things he wanted to, showed very little self awareness and was convinced that all the issues / problems were mine. So we stopped going as we were going around in circles. He's also been going to a counselor on his own for self esteem / related to his condition, but I must say that in almost a year I've seen very little change in him.

He is EXCELLENT at doing stuff around the house - cleaning, a lot of the cooking, shopping, taking our daughter to daycare. Our dishwasher broke and until we can get it fixed he is doing all the washing up too so I am grateful that despite not working in a paying job, he is definitely contributing in a practical sense. And he has been trying to get work, very hard, although not very efficiently (although I can't suggest that to him as he'll jump down my throat).

I'm not prepared to walk on eggshells or go along with everything he wants just to keep the peace, but I am prepared to give things another go. I saw a solicitor before Christmas, just to get an idea of practicalities (small child, property in two countries, would it need to support him etc) which has been very helpful. And my parents are very supportive and I have some great friends too.

I guess I don't really need support as such, just a safe place to help me work through things. And of course if it blows up, then I might need to vent!

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 07/01/2014 22:38

Hello, light, I think I missed your earlier post(s).

So, I have started work and it's brilliant - I am really enjoying it. But. I got home today, excited because I was picking the DCs up from school and I've not seen them since NYE. Except DD2 wasn't there, because FW had taken her to an activity she'd just decided today she wanted to do. WTF he had to take her, rather than saying I would, I don't know, but it was too late. And then, as I was already expecting, by the time that was over, it was late in the day and (as has already happened) DD2 didn't want to come here because she doesn't like handovers just before bedtime. So of course I said she should stay because I don't want her to be upset just because FW is a FW.

But I am fuming!!! Is there any way I can get the FW to see that I am a person and that he can not just trample over me??? He has totally taken advantage of the fact that I was not there at the end of school (I signed them up for the after-school club).

DS has been hard work this evening. He had a huge tantrum where he shouted and cried and shouted some more about how work spoils parents and now I'm working I'm a horrid mum, just because I put some boundaries back in the poor confused boy's life. :( DD1 says he's had a lot of episodes like that lately.

Meanwhile, FW is pushing for more and more contact - he wants it to be 50:50. I doubt that's a good thing and I wonder if it's just some way to get a bit of control over arrangements in the divorce somehow? But I don't know if I can stop him.

I'm trying to write an email to him now, but I just don't know how to get through to him. Of course, there is no way too, if he won't see, but in that case, do I even bother saying, "Oi, FW, that's my contact time - gerroff!"

:o I could phrase it like that, I suppose!

OP posts:
CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 07/01/2014 22:39

WTF meaning WHY THE FUCK in this instance, of course.

OP posts:
CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 07/01/2014 22:43

This could well be payback for "forbidding" him to take DD3 on holiday, it occurs to me... Hmm

OP posts:
CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 07/01/2014 23:04

Right, have sent my email and decided on a mild "Please don't make plans for the children during my time, you fuckwit."

Only without the FW bit. :o

OP posts:
MinkBernardLundy · 07/01/2014 23:33

I am not sure I would even bother with the Please charlotte.

tweedlezee · 07/01/2014 23:36

charlotte I feel for you. big hugs. Imagine the shower of shit you would get if you did the same. the email is a paper trail and you are right to acknowledge that it is not in keeping with your agreement that he takes your DD to anything without at least calling/emailing/notifying you of where they are. Sounds like DS is absorbing FW's emotions. Can you try and get some time with him over the next few days? Just a chance to tell him how much you love him and that if he ever needs to express how he feels that you will listen and wont judge.
He did it to look like a superhero. They have to be FW Super Heros. Can't possible realise that through boundaries, consistency, emotional stability and kindness they can be good parents OH NO!!! they must be Disney dads "You want that? I WILL GET YOU THAT!"
Can I ask how your FW is pushing for more contact? Is he just saying it to you or has he taken other (legal) steps? You seem to be about 6 months ahead of me so might be able to give me a heads up as to what to expect. As I am very sure I can expect it. time for Wine?

bountyicecream · 07/01/2014 23:45

charlotte it sounds awful and unfair on you but also dd2. I'm sure he's punishing you for working and clearly moving on. Is 50:50 even realistic with his working? Not that I think it's a good idea even if it is realistic.

Glad working is suiting you though. I think boundary testing is something all kids do when there is a change.

The email sounds good. Good that you've challenged him and brought him up on his bad behaviour immediately.

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 08/01/2014 10:00

Just logged on quickly to update that DS and DD3 were inseparable, best friends this morning! :o DS and I did have some good time together last night, so maybe that helped settle him back in.

FW's just saying it, tweedle. The d papers have only just been served (is that the phrase?), so he said yesterday he won't sign cos it says residency is with me. I don't think he's got himself a solicitor yet, though. I still don't feel I understand the process, anyway!

Right, better get to work!

OP posts:
IAmMine · 08/01/2014 19:09

Hello all,
Just updating re ss. They came for a completly different matter. One which I cant go into on here. (PHEW)
So ive been to solicitor who is lovely. Ive now lost my right to legal aid so am proceeding with divorce regardless.
My main concern is getting the fw off my mortgage as he isn't contributing to it. I need to have it all in my name. Financially I struggle but am doing it so she thinks there wont be a problem getting it signed over. My other worry is that fw will ignore it all and bury his head. He is v dodgy financially im worried that he wont disclose his money stuff.
Also hes moving in officially with his new victim. They are renting together. Half of me wants to find her and warn her off. The other half of me doesn't want him to be happy, content and imagines a cosy little life they must have together. While I am here bringing up his 3 dcs struggling, balancing working and motherhood.
I do feel better because ive been and started it again. Im worried though now its going to get worse before it gets better, last time it made me so ill I ended up in hospital. This was during our lovely summer last year. I rang fw to see if he could have dcs but kept being divertd to answer phone. I later found out he was abroad. Dcs didn't know either. Poor things. I don't begrudge him a holiday but he could have told his kids!!!! FW!!!
So im off now to begin the arduous process of printing bank statements and wage slips.
Charlotte if my exh had taken one of mine without my consent or knowledge I would have been physically sick. How awful for you.
Im so glad this little haven exsits for me to vent my angst.

tweedlezee · 08/01/2014 21:37

IAm - keep plugging away. All the moves you make, all the distance you create will make you stronger even though it is totally draining.
Your FW's new victim will either realise it in her own time (we hope) or is clueless to it. Either way, thinking/dealing with that is a drain on the resources you need to channel into your own family unit. Good luck with solicitors and stuff. If he is dodgy with finances that is his shit to deal with and will only serve to help your case.
I am also sat here printing things. Email for mediation (from FW) and bank statements for benefits office.
Good luck to all you ladies dealing with fwittery. The strength you are gaining may not be visible but it is real.

Mrsmorton · 08/01/2014 21:56

Hi again everyone, I've not been on here for ages and I'm sorry I haven't contributed, will try to keep up with next thread. I left my EA H last Thursday and am now renting a room in town it's hideous but hey ho

He is desperate to have me back, we are getting on quite well now to be honest. He says he can change, if we put the effort in it will be magical, our neighbours have been in touch with me saying how sad he is and how much they miss me too.

I know I know! He sounds so sad and it's heartbreaking but I need to stay strong, how do I do this? Help me please?

I know if I can stay away for six weeks or so then that will be that but it's so hard, especially when I'm living in a house far worse than any of my penniless student days and living off hideous microwave meals that I don't even know how to cook.

tweedlezee · 08/01/2014 22:17

MrsMorton- Hi.

I found the only way to remember what a shit bag my FW could be was to write down all the ways in which he had hurt me. Yes, when I felt level (happy) I could turn them on their head (I wound him up, he didn't MEAN to hurt me, he probably just reacted to my state of mind etc.) but reading them regularly, especially when he was being really nice helped to build my resolve.
I spent and I am not quite finished with sofa surfing for 3 and a half months leaving my kids with FW as I had no home and returning to look after them everyday. it is the hardest/worst thing I have ever done. BUT now I am planning my new home and I have space from his bullshit and spending time with others has made me realise the isolated and twisted world he created for us to live in. One in which no one had any say over what happened day to day as we were all waiting for his reaction to a situation and grateful when he didn't react like a petulant child.
I would advice doing nice things for yourself which he criticised/rejected/laughed at and see if you enjoy them still and whether you enjoy them more knowing he is not there (cant complain).
You may feel it better in the bubble and I can understand why but give it time outside and see if there is more kindness from strangers than you received from FW. My experience is that there is. Good Luck

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 08/01/2014 22:59

Mrs M, congratulations on moving out. Sorry the place you've gone to isn't up to much! Would freedom flowers or other such comforts make any difference? Have you unpacked many of your things yet? It took a few weeks for my place to feel friendly and welcoming, and this is no hovel (in fact it's gorgeous, but that made me feel inadequate at first, trying to fill it with a few paltry, tatty pieces of furniture).

I also think tweedle's idea of writing your shitlist is brilliant. Look back at your diary if you've kept one. He is pulling all the stops out now, so of course you're weakening - he's had years to learn what will affect you. FW here promised and did things that he had refused to for over ten years or had never done at all. And I fell for it. It makes me feel sick now just to think about it.

OP posts:
CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 08/01/2014 23:02

Also, you say you reckon six weeks will be enough - well, you've done one of them already, near enough! So congratulate yourself and cross each day off in black pen on a calendar if it helps! And final suggestion: looking into what better places are available locally and dreaming/planning of how to get into one?

OP posts:
MinkBernardLundy · 09/01/2014 07:49

Hi MrsM well done. Thanks it is hard especially if the place does not feel like home. But well done for getting out. try not to feel sad for him. If you go back it might be good for a while but worse in the long run. can you enrol on FP and focus on making life on your own better- presumably if it is a rented room you are not tied onto long term so hopefully the option to move on exists.
Hang in there. hold on to your reasons for leaving and where you will get to in the end not where you ar not. it will be worth it.

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