Does this man sound abusive. I say no - my friends think YES!

[LovelyVerity]

OK, I'm asking for a friend (no really I am). My 3 best girlfriends and I have known each other for the best part of two decades - we all lived together at uni. One of us has been single for over a decade - didn't want her kids to get "uncles" - fair enough. So at Christmas she announced she was going to do "dating for fun" now youngest is at Boarding school - then 2 weeks later she met this bloke she now describes as The Real Deal. Last weekend he proposed!

I like him - I would say yes. Our other two friends think she is vulnerable and he is controlling and scary. One of them goes so far to say he will probably end up hitting her. Here's why they think that:

1. When they first met, he refused to have sex for 4 months, because he doesn't 'do' casual sex - they say weird and controlling for a bloke - I say fair enough.
2. He has professional qualifications in massage/hoslitic therapies (not sleazy) and likes to massage my friend - usually moving onto sex. I say WOO HOO - they say he likes his women passive and inert.
3. He enjoys masturbating her to orgasm.. apparently this makes him controlling and domineering.. I could live with that ;-)
4. He told her he'd like to take her somewhere special for her birthday - and then turned up on her doorstep that morning and told her they were going to Le Meurice, Paris for dinner - which meant she had to cancel brunch with us on the Sunday (which we do often anyway), as they obv stayed over night... they say... well - you get the picture.. I think it was maybe a tad presumptuous but FFS... it's new love... and it was LE MEURICE!!!
5. He says he wants to get married and try for a baby ASAP. My friends think this is pushy and pressurising and close to emotional blackmail. Friend had thought her baby days were done - but he has no children. I sort of admire him for being so up front.

What do you think? I should add, he's charming, educated, funny and solvent, and he gets on great with her children (now 18 and 15). I would say yes, but are my friends really seeing danger signs that I just can't see?

"If he's 46 and she's late 30s I don't think 10 months is too soon to talk marriage."

It is if one of them has two children that will have a step-father their mother barely knows foisted on them.

Little bairn, I would find it utterly odd if a woman wanted to wait four months before having sex.
No double standard at all.

Back2 - I'm not talking about that sort of mutual enjoyment of each other. I've had some odd experiences though where it ends up feeling like an odd performance. Sadly I spent a long time with someone who was a bit weird about it and it makes me feel a bit icky about certain phrasing.

Hmm.. not sure

He does seem a bit full on. No bad side at all? Not even a fart in bed?! I would be wary of anyone (man or woman) who was proposing and wanting to TTC straight away after 10 months, seems either desperate or pushy.

But tbh my main concern is that after years of singledom, she thinks that the first bloke she has met is "the one". I concede that it could happen, but lets face it, the odds are stacked against her.

From "dating for fun" to engaged in less than a year seems a bit fast to me. I wonder if this man is her transition given that she hasnt had a relationship since she lost her husband.

Spud are you talking about the fact that if you dont manage to orgasm then somehow you or he have failed? Like it HAS to come to a conclusion otherwise there is an issue? I had one like that, it was as if he had a point to prove and frankly I got to the point of feeling used just so he could say that he could make a woman orgasm every time. Got less sexy as time went on and I dumped him.

The thing is, MOST people get off on giving their sexual partner pleasure. It's sexy.

But people for whom "giving a woman pleasure" is a THING are icky.

What JYP said. When you feel like a project rather than a participant.

Project is exactly it.

The goal was the orgasm, the woman could have been anyone.

It's like a woman's pleasure isn't important in its own right, but only matters because it turns this man on.

AND you're supposed to be grateful for how "selfless" he is in bed.

1 = pretty mad

2-4 = OK

5 = a bit mad

I don't see anything worrying so far.

Talking about marriage early on doesn't mean anything bad either. I talked about marrying my husband very very quickly, we are still stupidly happy 8 years later. It can be a red flag but not all the time.

No one here can really say though can they? You can read deeper meanings into anything but there is no where near enough information to judge the guy as abusive.

I had DC 1 and 2 aged 26 and 29, and thought I was done. Then I got to 39 and changed my mind.
Just saying....

Only read the OP so far. The first sign if a potentially abusive man is cutting her off from friends and family. From what I gather he hasn't done that. He may be jyst quirky. If she's fine with it, that's all that matters. X

No Crista, that's not the first sign, it's one of the signs.

I think it's a bit dangerous to assume that because someone hasn't done 1 well-recognised abuse tactic, that means he doesn't tick the box.

Not all abusers cut their victims off from their friends. Some of them infiltrate their support networks and ensure that they are so integrated into them, that the friends and relatives have an emotional investment in the relationship continuing, because the support network becomes the network of the couple, rather than of the abuse victim.

This may be completely irrelevant in this case, but I just wanted to flag that so people are aware.

Research into these things have shown that the first stage of an abusive relationship is isolation. They may infiltrate into friends and family circle but it doesn't mean the victim is allowed to see them without him, speak to them without him knowing or allowing it. That's still cutting off. Not completely, but...

That's not quite right. Research shows that isolation is a massive factor in most abusive relationships, but I'm not aware that it shows that it is inevitably always the first sign and it's a bit dangerous to categorically tell people it is - it can give people a false sense of security if their abusive relationship doesn't follow the template.

It's also not clear if he's working on isolating her or not.

She's less available. Does that mean she doesn't answer the phone or return calls or is simply busy?
His whisking away did alienate her from friends. I'm sure they can live without her and meet without her. Does he do this only us very often or was it just this one? Does she change her plans with them often because of him? Or just this one?

We simply don't have enough info to judge, but it will be good if she is sufficiently aware to detect if there are any red flags in his behaviour or all is normal.

Just going from your posts, Verity, I'd say he sounds jolly nice and your friend must be having a good time!

10 months is too soon. And, if the child is a deal-breaker, she's on a sticky wicket. Assuming she's okay about having another at 40 - and prepared to raise it single-handed - why don't they TTC but hold off the wedding? I don't think she should let herself be railroaded into life-changing decisions by a man she only met this year.

Your friends' reasoning sounds a bit off to me, but it is possible they've picked up on small clues that give the overall impression he could be controlling.

Obviously this is tricky because presumably anybody could turn out to be abusive/controlling regardless of how their relationship began. I do understand both you and your friend's pov though.

All of the points in your OP could be absolutely harmless, even lovely. However, they do all seem to indicate that he "likes to be in control" both of his own behaviour and I suppose to a lesser extent your friend's behaviour. However, he might just be trying really hard to make things perfect for them both. When I first met DP she could be a bit "I'm going to whisk you off somewhere" and she once actually packed my bag for me and was a bit hurt when I said that was intrusive and not helpful! She is not in the least abusive and I should know after 10 very happy years together. The thing is if I ever objected to her gestures or said, in a nice way, that I found it all a bit overbearing she was very receptive , even if she was a bit hurt at first.

Also when, a few months from getting married, I had a bit of a wobble and felt it was too soon, she was relaxed and keen to ensure that I had the time I needed to feel right about it. I think that is the key to this situation OP. It's not necessarily the things you mention it's his reaction if she objects or tries to "take control" of the relationship herself.

I am just being curious now more than anything, but is it usually the norm to share so many intimate details with friends? Like the bringing her to orgasm via masturbation or even the massage then sex bit - I would not feel this was something I wanted to share with my three friends, but maybe I am a bit repressed or something! I just can't imagine dropping it into conversation really.

If I thought my DH was telling his friends details like that about our relationship I would be highly insulted.

I think it's very normal. My friends and I share loads of details about our sex lives. Not in a way that disrespects partners necessarily, although obviously if there's a funny story about a ONS or whatever it gets shared! We all trust each other and wouldn't repeat anything inappropriately.

It's his reaction if she objects or tries to "take control" of the relationship herself.

I think this is a good marker. Not the only one, but crucial.

Goony, I have a friend who will tell me when her DH has been pestering her for sex or why she may or may not have felt like it, but whenever I bring up something about the good sex I have with my DP she goes all "ew...TMI!"

With other friends I share quite intimate details and they tell me what they've been up to, we even talk about corrupting our other halves by trying new things!

Some people are more open about their sex life, especially if it's something to be proud of, some are only open to talking about problems with their sex life, but not the good bits (which I find weird). The sort of details being shared here (he likes to make her orgasm) is the sort of thing I have told friends to demonstrate how caring and giving he is and I'm sure DP has shared details of my epic blow jobs with his friends too, which I'm more than happy about!

Goony, I'm with you!