Does this man sound abusive. I say no - my friends think YES!

[LovelyVerity]

OK, I'm asking for a friend (no really I am). My 3 best girlfriends and I have known each other for the best part of two decades - we all lived together at uni. One of us has been single for over a decade - didn't want her kids to get "uncles" - fair enough. So at Christmas she announced she was going to do "dating for fun" now youngest is at Boarding school - then 2 weeks later she met this bloke she now describes as The Real Deal. Last weekend he proposed!

I like him - I would say yes. Our other two friends think she is vulnerable and he is controlling and scary. One of them goes so far to say he will probably end up hitting her. Here's why they think that:

1. When they first met, he refused to have sex for 4 months, because he doesn't 'do' casual sex - they say weird and controlling for a bloke - I say fair enough.
2. He has professional qualifications in massage/hoslitic therapies (not sleazy) and likes to massage my friend - usually moving onto sex. I say WOO HOO - they say he likes his women passive and inert.
3. He enjoys masturbating her to orgasm.. apparently this makes him controlling and domineering.. I could live with that ;-)
4. He told her he'd like to take her somewhere special for her birthday - and then turned up on her doorstep that morning and told her they were going to Le Meurice, Paris for dinner - which meant she had to cancel brunch with us on the Sunday (which we do often anyway), as they obv stayed over night... they say... well - you get the picture.. I think it was maybe a tad presumptuous but FFS... it's new love... and it was LE MEURICE!!!
5. He says he wants to get married and try for a baby ASAP. My friends think this is pushy and pressurising and close to emotional blackmail. Friend had thought her baby days were done - but he has no children. I sort of admire him for being so up front.

What do you think? I should add, he's charming, educated, funny and solvent, and he gets on great with her children (now 18 and 15). I would say yes, but are my friends really seeing danger signs that I just can't see?

As for point three- your friends are weird!

I'm on the fence.

The Paris thing wouldn't have made me happy. What would his response be if she told him she already had plans and wouldn't cancel them? I think his response would be very telling.
Personally, I wouldn't like this type of grand gesture because it's all about him, not her. She couldn't say no because the tickets presumably were already bought.

So, I wouldn't rush into marriage, particularly with a child (?) and would observe carefully about other aspects of the relationship.

How does he deal with disagreement?
How does he treat staff at restaurants?
How do they make plans?
What does he say about exes?

Check this list or this

DH and I knew we wanted to get married after two weeks together....and we were only 17.

17 years later, married for ten and two kids with a third planned we are still ridiculously happy and in love. 3 of the things on the list apply to us (except it was a weekend in Wales not Paris)

I think it could be huge red flags if other things are 'weird' or it could be lovely gestures if he treats the rest of the world with consideration.

We need more info for sure.

I guess it depends if potentially having to sort out work, childcare, previous plans etc on the the whim of someone else floats your boat or not

Not for me

I hate surprises. Surprise parties, surprise trips away, surprise anything

He sounds fab! If she doesn't want him, pass on his number. How the fuck can him enjoying making her orgasm ever be a bad thing? The birthday trip is pretty full on, but romantic and a 'grand gesture' in my book, not creepy and controlling.

Wanting kids isn't a huge surprise if he doesn't have his own yet, and wanting to do it sooner rather than later could be an age thing, plenty of women are sensitive to the ticking clock, not unheard of for a man to consider it too.

I think your friends should keep their noses out and let her enjoy it. As long as she is confident enough to decide what makes her happy and you are all there to support her if it does all go wrong (as you would also be for your other friends, there are no guarantees that their relationships will last either) then I can't see why they are getting worked up about it.

Fwiw I think 10 months is plenty long enough to know someone well if they spend a lot of time together. You could be dating for 2 or 3 years and seeing each other once or twice a week, or be dating for a year and spend most nights together. Time is irrelevant, it's the type and intensity of their time together that will allow them to know each other.

Other than the feathery stroking and the Paris trip ( I got a Gary Glitter Concert on Xmas Eve )it could be me and the DH 21 years ago.

I agree the only weird one for me is waiting 4 months for actual sex but if they were doing other stuff and it just didn't happen then fair enough. No sexual contact at all for that time would be odd to me, but if it was a woman wanting to wait nobody would judge.

Ewww! Feathery stroking, noooo! Perhaps it is a deep tissue massage?

I gave DH a surprise trip to Paris last year:

a) it was our 10th wedding anniversary so I knew him pretty well at this point
b) we had a kid-free weekend and no other plans
c) he loves Paris and surprises and grand gestures

a bit different with someone you don't know who had other plans.

And I gave DH a hand job just the other day!

Oh wait, no I didn't.

I don't believe you are representing your friends' views of him fairly.

I think it's always wise to be concerned if multiple friends think your new boyfriend is controlling.

I would also be wary if a few friends have a bad feeling about him. I married a man who was also prone to big gestures initially and wanted us to move in together after just a couple of months. He turned out to be very controlling and a bully.
Then again other posters are saying they have happy marriages that started similarly.
After my experience I would always be wary now, and take things very, very slowly before making big commitments.

Well I wouldn't fuck a man like this with someone else's chuff. He sounds like a gloopy-eyed, clammy-handed, self-obsessed creep.
But then I loathe woo, massage and 'romantic' gestures. And I wouldn't put up with waiting four months for a shag, I'd have binned and moved on after about a fortnight - I think 'waiting' for sex (once you are an adult) is either manipulative or an indication that the person just isn't very interested in sex in the first place.

However, I agree that the main things to watch out for are the way he reacts if she doesn't want what he wants her to want IYSWIM. If she'd said No to the weekend in Paris, would he have tantrummed?

Oh thank God

Someone else who thinks this guy is a controlling and creepy weirdo

OP, have you come clean yet ? You love the woo feathery stroking bollix don't you ?

None of the things you mention mean anything in themselves. Taking time to start having sex and the time mentioned to talk about marriage are personal, and you aren't telling me that every massage therapist is a total pervert!?

Since you don't know the man, I think you need to judge this more on your friends than this guy's reported traits - both the friend who is in the relationship and the ones who are judging it. Does your friend in the relationship tend to not see red flags at the start of relationships or is she especially vulnerable? Do your critical friends often tend to be hypercritical of men for no good reason or are they hostile to change within the group?

In either case, what are you looking to do about this situation? If your friend is enjoying the massage, trips to Paris and marriage proposals, that's her business. I think the most you can do is to really find out whether she thinks the guy is controlling and whether her own gut instincts are good about the way things are progressing, and encourage her to follow these. She has a family and considerable life experience, so it isn't as though you are counselling a teenage daughter or something.

I really want to say, he sounds great but the more I read that list the more I want to tell her to run
I'm with fabric there is no harm waiting to see I guess but I would not be rushing. I said that before and then did rush and got myself in a massive mess

Your friends sound jealous and strange.
But if more than one person is saying something perhaps there is something to it.
I would just keep an eyes and ears out for things but encourage her to fill her boots.

1. unilateral choice - his - song and dance about it - it is not the time that is the problem here that is personal - it is the fact that he - 'refused' wierd and controlling = red flag
2. unilateral choice - his - (moving on to) song and dance about it (likes to) = red flag

3.unilateral choice - again no mention of what 'she' likes. (I might love chocolate cake, but that does not mean I want someone else to insist on bringing me chocolate cake all the time regardless of what I fancy) = red flat

1. unilateral choice - 'turned up and told her' = big red flag
2. unilateral totally and the biggest red flag!

As people have suggested, look at the other markers:

does he feel 'hard done by'?
how does he treat those he considers 'inferior'?
does he feel that rules don't apply to him: traffic regulations, for example?
how is he with money?
how is he about her clothes and/or general appearance?
...

(Lweji's second list is useful) and 'charming, personable and full on figure prominently.

I think your friends could just be pee'd off with him for whisking her away to Paris so she missed your regular brunch together.
Life is better with some spontaneity!

Not my cup of tea but can't see anything outrageous in those things. Can't see why they would think he is scary/violent so guessing they have other less tangible reasons for thinking that. Keep an open mind I guess but as with everything you should act yourself as you see fit.

Sounds a bit similar to waves' threads - grand gestures, whirlwind wedding. Didn't end well. Is your friend wealthy?

My ex OM did a lot of no 3 Wish someone else would