Does this man sound abusive. I say no - my friends think YES!

[LovelyVerity]

OK, I'm asking for a friend (no really I am). My 3 best girlfriends and I have known each other for the best part of two decades - we all lived together at uni. One of us has been single for over a decade - didn't want her kids to get "uncles" - fair enough. So at Christmas she announced she was going to do "dating for fun" now youngest is at Boarding school - then 2 weeks later she met this bloke she now describes as The Real Deal. Last weekend he proposed!

I like him - I would say yes. Our other two friends think she is vulnerable and he is controlling and scary. One of them goes so far to say he will probably end up hitting her. Here's why they think that:

1. When they first met, he refused to have sex for 4 months, because he doesn't 'do' casual sex - they say weird and controlling for a bloke - I say fair enough.
2. He has professional qualifications in massage/hoslitic therapies (not sleazy) and likes to massage my friend - usually moving onto sex. I say WOO HOO - they say he likes his women passive and inert.
3. He enjoys masturbating her to orgasm.. apparently this makes him controlling and domineering.. I could live with that ;-)
4. He told her he'd like to take her somewhere special for her birthday - and then turned up on her doorstep that morning and told her they were going to Le Meurice, Paris for dinner - which meant she had to cancel brunch with us on the Sunday (which we do often anyway), as they obv stayed over night... they say... well - you get the picture.. I think it was maybe a tad presumptuous but FFS... it's new love... and it was LE MEURICE!!!
5. He says he wants to get married and try for a baby ASAP. My friends think this is pushy and pressurising and close to emotional blackmail. Friend had thought her baby days were done - but he has no children. I sort of admire him for being so up front.

What do you think? I should add, he's charming, educated, funny and solvent, and he gets on great with her children (now 18 and 15). I would say yes, but are my friends really seeing danger signs that I just can't see?

This for me. Also I have a thing about men who 'like to watch women get off' and go on about it a lot. Yeh - next time chuck me a peanut and I'll do a little dance too. It's perfoming seal territory for me.

Just brilliant. But surely you mean sardine?

I did rather mix my metaphors there didn't I? But maybe seals like peanuts. I do.

DH bought me a trip to Paris 3 months into our relationship. 10 years, 2 kids later things are great and we still love a weekend away when we can get it!!

And gratuitous (the OP asks if the friends are right or wrong, not whether they are dodgy unpleasant people) comments on female jealousy/envy (call me a pedant, but I do wish people would distinguish between the two and say which they mean - sadly, I think posters are referring to that well documented classic female emotion - green-eyed, dog in the manger envy of another female)
Go into the lead! Let's not hear it for those who presume that female friendship is about wanting the worst for those we love

DH bought me a trip to Paris 3 months into our relationship. 10 years, 2 kids later things are great and we still love a weekend away when we can get it!!

But did he show up on your doorstep and told you you were leaving?

In my last relationship I was when bf showed up at my door (he lived 45 min away), with his friend (who I had met exactly once), when I was struggling with a DS with D&V and who had kept me awake all night.
Yes, it's nice to visit a sick person, but not to bring friends along and unannounced, "because he knew I'd say no". He was told off, of course.
But a couple of months later he was annoyed when he thought I had bought tickets for a play (not last minute, anyway) without him saying ok first.

I'm saying this because for attitudes to be considered red flags they have to be taken in context.

Huh...sorry but I didn't realise jealousy was a one gender only type of thing.
If someone seems jealous I don't really think it is anything to do with their sex.
Men are just as likely to be jealous, should we not say that women are ever jealous in case it is gender stereotyping. ..seriously?

TBH I don't think you've given enough information for anyone to say if he's abusive or not.

In a certain context, all 5 of the things you describe could be red flags, in another context they could all be OK and acceptable.

For example the turning up on doorstep one - if he'd hinted at a surprise and she knew he was going to do sth special that day and he didn't know she'd booked sth for Sunday, fine (although actually, ppl should check that and not assume). If he knew that she'd already booked brunch with her friends, then huge red flag - shows a lack of respect for her friendship and her friends and that alone would be utterly shit behaviour IMO.

Similarly with marriage and kids - if he's at a lifestage where he wants to get on with it and doesn't want to get involved with someone who doesn't want (more) kids, I think it's absolutely reasonable to be upfront about what you want from a relationship. If OTOH he's pressuring her, obvious red flag.

Not at all queen just that, although the motives of the friends was not in the remit of the OP, for some reason, some posters chose to lay into the friends than answer the question.
I am, therefore, really questioning the mindset of posters who would choose to make such an enormous leap (your friends are nasty people who are envious of new found joy and want to spoil it) in the same way as I am questioning those who said that posters were unfairly laying into men although the OP specifically asked for opinions on that particular man and replies saying that the man was better avoided are now in the minority.
As you were, and I really am going now - forgot me hat.

He sounds like he could just be a lovely bloke who is eager to get his family started and settle down. However I do find some of the things you mentioned worrying.

It is so often very unclear until its to late with an abuser, they pull out all the stops and lay on the charm with you, with friends and family. The abuse usually starts in a very gradual manner with little things that wouldn't seem worth making a fuss about and then it slowly escalates. The abuse usually starts once they think they have a good hold on you (e.g. pregnant or financially tied) as then they know your much less likely to walk out. Often they provide the prince charming act at the start because they know that will be what keeps their victim clinging onto when they suddenly become Mr nasty/controlling.

It happens so gradually you don't even notice and you start to make excuses for his behavior. All your friends and everyone else thinks he is a great bloke and after all its so out of character for him as he is usually all about attentiveness and romantic gestures....maybe his is just having a hard time, is depressed, family crisis etc etc.

I would not tell your friend to stop seeing him, but I would tell her to be on the look out for several things. It sounds to me like you friend is comfortable financially, so I would warn her to especially vigilant with her money and to run for the hills if he starts creating some drama or family tragedy and needs her to lend him some money...even if it only seems a small amount. As a single Mum with a partner who had passed away it is important that she protect herself financially and if he is genuinely a lovely bloke he will understand this and have no problem with it.

In regards to him wanting to have a baby, if I was your friend I would be sitting down with him and having a little chat. I would say something like: its great that you want to start a family, but I have 2 older children to consider and so its a very big step for me. While having another baby is not off the table I would like to wait for a while and let our relationship grow before we start trying to conceive. Again if he really is as good as he seems on paper he will be understanding and have no problem with it.

Keep a close eye on your friend, watch closely for her withdrawing from you and your friends....of course you expect her to be busier but be aware. Also make sure that you still get to see her on her own without him and without his influence so you see how she is when she is away from him.

I am not saying the worst, and it sounds like your friend really deserves a chance at happiness. Just be on your guard for her and be there when she needs you.

Sounds fine to me as long as she is happy and does actually want to be with this man and have more children.

It sounds to me from what you said that she maybe had settled on not having anymore because of losing her DH and being on her own for a decade but maybe that's not what she actually wanted and now she's met someone she's changed her mind.

I think there is something different about losing your DH/father of your children and how you see your future after that (or there is with my friend) compared to those whose relationships have ended.

I also think if he gets on with her teens then that must be a good sign surely? (or maybe I'm naïve? just again friends of mine with teens haven't been so easy with new partners)

So basically what some posters are saying is that a man who appears especially kind, caring and charming may only be doing it to lull you into a false sense of secuirty before he beats hell out of you - therefore someone who fairly indifferent, not especially thoughtful and inattentive would be a better bet?

"So basically what some posters are saying is that a man who appears especially kind, caring and charming may only be doing it to lull you into a false sense of secuirty before he beats hell out of you - therefore someone who fairly indifferent, not especially thoughtful and inattentive would be a better bet?"

No, nobody is saying that and it is a ridiculous misrepresentation of what people are saying.

I'm pretty sure you are similarly misrepresenting what your friends are saying about him because for some reason you are WAY over invested in this relationship working out.

Agreed, Verity! There seems to be a rather sad tendency to be cynical and suspicious. My DH is a genuinely lovely bloke - no ulterior motives - and he can't be the only one!

I do think she should wait a bit for marriage etc but flagging abuse because the guy is being nice is just silly.

nope, verity

If he's 46 and she's late 30s I don't think 10 months is too soon to talk marriage. You know who you are and what you want by that time.

Given that 1 in 4 women experience domestic violence in their lives, it is anything but silly for women to be aware of the red flags.

In fact, it's bloody silly to ignore them.

1. No one would think this is odd if the woman wanted to wait to have sex. I find it very sensible.

1. Surely they are just jealous! And plus maybe you friend likes to be passive...

1. So he likes foreplay sounds great IMO. He certainly doesn't sound like a lazy lover but someone who takes the time to appreciate his partner.

1. Maybe badly handled to pre planning but a lovely gift and I bet your friend loved it.

1. I don't find that pushy at all. My DH and I spoke of marriage 3 weeks after we met and married a year later. Some people just know what they want once they have found the 'one'.

The baby thing he clearly doesn't want to mislead her in regards to how he would like the future to be and wants to be honest. If your friend is unhappy them its up to her to make it clear her baby days are over.

Could it be the other friends are jealous of all the romance, sex and excitement of new love? They certainly sound like they are determined to find fault.

He sounds all right. I don't like the whisking and massage but that's just me. I don't see any obvious red flags.

a man who appears especially kind, caring and charming may only be doing it to lull you into a false sense of security before he beats hell out of you

It is a possibility.

That is why we should experience how he deals with disagreements and disappointment, if he respects other people who he is not trying to woo, etc.

Ok if being nice is a red flag, what isn't?? Genuine question.

If she is happy and is normally a good judge of character then I don't see the problem. Do you all get on well with him?

I was engaged within 5 months of getting with my fiancé. By the time we get married it'll have been 18 months. I was worried that people would tell me it was too soon but everyone was so happy for me as he is great and he has know my best friend since they were teens.

incidentally he broached the subject of children with me very early on after a few drinks as he wants kids and I am not really outwardly maternal so he wanted to make sure we had the same goals before it got serious. We are in our mid 30s so I thought that waa quite a sensible approach

Being nice isn't a red flag.

Being too nice may be.

If he's nice to everyone is fine, if he's only nice to you, it's a red flag.

If your friend wants an acid test then she must wait until he proposes doing something she knows is important to him - and then she says no to it.

If he is disappointed and a bit miffed, fair enough.

If he gets angry and disrespectful - then utmost caution needed.

Agree with Lilly and Basil - there is no harm in being cautious particularly if you have been out of the dating game for two decades.

Also 39 isn't so old that a decision about babies has to be made within weeks or months, particularly with someone who has previously had children.

Also "nice" means nothing - the OP has described a set of behaviours that some posters have interpreted as benign and others haven't. Personally I would run a mile from an ex-City boy with a degree in woo so I don't think he is 'nice' and every woman's dream.

Finally, yes, I would think it weird - WITHOUT FURTHER INFORMATION OR CONTEXT - if an adult woman was dating a man she found attractive and wanted a relationship with - but would not DTD for months.