Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

Can I just say that in this situation:

You feel awful about "taking an old lady's precious possessions" despite the fact that you've actually bought her time with them (at considerable personal cost) and lifted the interest of a debt from her shoulders and onto your own.

She feels supremely relaxed about taking her own grandson's maternally-cared-for infancy from him, just so she can have some cold inanimate objects around her, while you suffer financially. So relaxed she's planning how to relieve you of even more money that could be going on her own grandson's wellbeing, and is arranging and trotting off to the bank to hold business meetings with people who could facilitate that for her. While being unable to cope with a meeting in her own home that is to her personal disadvantage.

All this shows is that one of you is a sweetheart and one of you a selfish piece of work. And it's obvious which. Trying to guilt trip you is an additional cheek. She asked for the money while offering her possessions as collateral, over 3 months, and she's trying to refuse repayment despite knowing the hardship she's causing you. She sounds like she bounced you into this without the least intention of selling anything.

Keep your nerve, OP. Because she's certainly got one!

Her and FIL sound like they were utterly reckless and selfish with money. They had a total of something like 60k in debt, more problems with a mortgage in a few years, and were doing nothing about it!

It is an incredibly difficult and sensitive subject, and your dh probably does genuinely believe that living in poverty for his entire life is less hardship than standing up to his mother.

It sounds like she is highly manipulative, gas lighting you, lying and browbeating.

I have no answers for you, but if this is normal behavior and not a complete personality transplant due to grief, then it is going to be extremely difficult f or you and dh t o stand up to her, even if dh is willing and able.

Don't keep telling her why you need the money. Out the emphasis on her. SHE borrowed it, SHE owes it, SHE needs to repay it. You could intend to throw it all in the air, it is irrelevant. It is not her money and she is stealing from her own family and lying to them.

Well done op, must have been hard for you, as clearly youbare still in shock she doesnt have any of your ethics and good nature.

but she certainly managed to derail it, as bogeyface says, and she is deliberately doing that to distract you. Its very clever. Politicians do it all the time. Watch Jeremy Paxman and see. Even he ends up shouting " answer the question!" And he is a professional interveiwer.

You are not taking an old lady's possessions, whatever gave you that idea?
Is that what your mil said to you? Or she said with a catch in her voice to dh?

She had already said she would sell her pictures to repay you. Did the suggestion that she sell her pictures immediately come up when she became liable to pay the loan?

Who suggested you take on the debt- because what was the difference really between doing it then or in 3 months?

Somehow, you took on this debt for 3 months - but used your long term debt facility to pay it- , you extended your mortgage to pay her debt and she was supposed to pay you back. Now here we are, over a year later and still she hasn't paid you back.

And when you talk to her, calculate the interest and say actually, its not just 15k, is 17 k or whatever is is. DO NOT write off the interest. Just don't. Otherwise its a big cash present to someone who doesn't even get her gc a soft toy. And quite clearly sleeps easily at night knowing she is causing you and your dh stress and worry, potentially wrecking your maternity leave and marriage and keeping her gc in a flat when he could have a garden.

Perfectstorm has a good idea- you need go and take objects to the value of the FULL amount of the debt, not just 15k, plus expenses - petrol for seeing valuers - and will be taking pictures/ objects the same day. Its no good getting upset, she got into debt and spent the 15k not caring how it could be paid back.

If she throws a tantrum or cries crocodile tears it will be to get you to back down and say " oh poor old lady, leave your pictures". Its worked so far hasn't it?

Stop paying her to come and see your ds -that little scam has hopefully finished- and if anyone mentions Christmas I would quite frankly laugh. She won't be seeing your ds will she? Let her tell her friends why. Or your dh can drive up there laden with gifts for " the poor old lady"

Talk to your dh about getting a charge on the house ( what a good idea, I didnt know you could do that) NOW. This week. Because what she dies suddenly, run over, any things ( and of course you hope not) and you have to contest the will. Please please don't let your dh try and fool you with words, eg, oh sis knows we are owed the money. We have seen how badly this has gone.

And I strongly suggest you and your dh get the status of her mortgage from the latest statement, check with the bank what will happen in 3 years, ie how much is left, and you get this charge done. Call a solicitor near her, ask how much, add that to the money she ows you and take her in there.

This may sound callous, but you can't take it with you, shrouds don't have pockets and there should be no reason at all she won't sign. Any stuff about " ooh, I don't like thinking about dying" well, no one does but its the one sure thing. Look at the mess your fil left, surely she doesn't want this for you?"

Make it clear its because if anything happens to her, you will not be at the top of the list when debts are paid. And of course, you won't be paying her debts. Make sure your dh hasn't signed anything.

And all that is just a safety net. You need the money NOW. She is playing you like a fish. And your DH. What does your DH want to do? Brush it under the carpet? He must find it hard, standing up to her, or having to support you as you stand up to her. Will she call him and complain about you? She isn't coming out of this very well, is she?

Well done OP! This isn't the last difficult conversation with her that you're going to need to have though.

I would tell her the consequences for you of paying off her debt. So: "we were going to move to a house with room for DC, but instead, we're stuck in an unsuitable, small flat because you haven't paid us our money like you promised."

If she tries to derail future conversations, just say repeatedly: "we cannot afford to take on your debt. You promised to pay it back in three months. We need the money NOW"

You are not depriving her of her things, you're asking her to stick to her deal. She owes you £15K and interest and that is having a huge detrimental effect on your lives!

I think you are going to need to get tough with her.

OP- I really feel for you and you are being far too nice about this. IIRC you said that they have owned the house for 30 years? With the average mortgage being 25 years and the HUGE rise in house prices over that time, they should have paid off the mortgage or have serious equity. I suspect they have just been re mortgaging and re mortgaging and living off the money.

There is no way you should be taking on her debt, particularly if it is for art work and fancy meals rather than true hardship. She doesn't want strangers seeing her pictures but is happy for you to cut short your maternity and hand your baby over to 'strangers'. (I'm not anti childcare btw as my own DD went before one and loves it. The 'strangers' soon became her second family and they love her. I'm just trying to illustrate the situation IYSWIM.)

I think the best thing your DH could do is get to the bottom of her financial situation and try to help her make it sustainable in the long term. And get your cash back!

Everything's comparable, Chunderella. She has £200k plus in equity. That would be ample to get a 2/3 bed place, even in places such as Harrogate/South Manchester which are not in the same league, price-wise, as London or the Home Counties - or even Cambridgeshire or the Cotswolds. Neither of the areas mentioned are expensive compared to the UK national average, even, yet you yourself say they're the priciest in the possible areas. You'd have no chance of getting somewhere nice on that money where we live, and we aren't in the most expensive areas of the country... unlike the OP.

MIL also needs some good debt advice- the fact that she's paying like £1200 a month from an income of £1700 is ridiculous. The debt worker at the local CAB, if they still have one, would have something choice to say about that. Frankly, what OP and her DH are doing isn't even helping MIL in the long run. If I were giving up 15k and two thirds of my maternity leave, I'd want it to be for something with greater tangible benefits than 'allowing MIL to kick the can a bit further up the road'. This situation isn't sustainable.

Yes, completely agree with that. But she should be able to substantially reduce that debt if she moved, possibly even clear it, depending on how much over the £200k she could realise and where she is located. And she wouldn't have insane maintenance/mortgage interest costs on top either, which would leave her with a lot more of her pension to spend.

I know she's got no chance in her current home but even if she wanted to be really picky with her next one, if she could get what remained of the debt rolled up into her own mortgage (there'd still be a lot of equity to secure the debt from the lender's perspective, surely?) then her repayment costs would shrink? Mortgages are supposed to be the lowest interest form of commercially available loan, no? And there are specialised mortgages for pensioners it seems - I had a quick google because I had no idea if the market even existed. It does. That would leave her her art, a nice and manageable home, and a debt that is payable in manageable chunks. Of course getting her to face the fact that she has to cut her cloth according to her means may be a struggle, but surely the idea of keeping her art and far, far more of her pension would appeal to her? The house just isn't sustainable.

Don't feel bad, OP-it's not as if she's going to be on the street!

I wasn't thinking of Alderley Edge etc as 200 miles from London, tbh, which is daft because of course the OP would round up (and think in terms of driving miles rather than as the crow flies) so it is. It never seemed that far North to me (used to live in Shropshire so would visit Cheshire to shop) so was vaguely thinking more like 150. Rounding down, in fact! I'm certain on Harrogate, though. Friends bought a lovely 3 bed Victorian terrace there for a whisker under 200k a year ago. Not that I'm bitterly jealous or anything.

But as you say, even if she did live in those pockets of affluence, her money could stretch a very, very long way. Which MIL presumably knows, given her focus isn't "I could never afford anywhere else!" but "I can't bear to leave my nest!" I still can't help thinking a new mortgage based on her own income, if needful for a small amount, would be a lot better than her current leeching. And it would still leave her with more cash than at present on a month-to-month basis.

When all mils debts are paid, and the real amount she gets every month confirmed, as the truth might be different. My dsis lied about her paid off mortgage for years to get my dm to give her a cash amount every month to help. 300 a month.

There might not be much left of the 200k.

She is telling you stuff, but there is no paperwork to prove it.

Blimey, Lavender! Your sis sounds a real peach.

Yes, and it was me that dropped her in it- she was telling me during a visit she had paid off her mortgage ages ago and was starting to buy antique furniture.
My dm was fussing about her will and who gets what, and said she needed to be fair as she had been paying dsis mortgage, and I said well thank goodness its paid off now then... Deadly silence.

Op, hope you and your dh are in agreement and its not causing any more rowing between the two of you.

Lavender. What did your mum do?!

"My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt"

"plus my FIL had another debt of over £15k and she's repaying that in installments"

If these debts were solely taken out by FiL, they would have been written off with his death. Is this another lie/ twisted truth?

Teeny

Pants, she stopped giving her money. She asked dsis for the mortgage statement and it all came out. Dm adjusted her will and no more was said.

Lavender. How hurtful for your mum though!

That's awful.

Teeny they wouldn't have been written off as he had assets, just charged against those assets. So MIL had the choice of selling the house/antiques to repay the debts, or taking them on herself.

Of course, she'd also need to have advised the lenders that the debtor had died. I suspect she just carried on paying them.

Chunderella that's a really good point. She can't afford that house - and helping her face up to that sooner rather than later is actually kinder.

Lavender your poor Mum. That must have been unbelievably hurtful for her. Cannot fathom how your sis could have done it.

'I do feel pretty mean taking an old lady's cherished possessions and she's not making it easy. It is like pulling teeth. My husband is also really disappointed and angry with me after our row last night as I was pretty rude about my MIL sad.'

Oh, yeah?! Really? Because a lot of us on here would have long ago told him to go piss up a rope before he ever was able to get a loan of £15k to hand over to this manipulative, spendthrift bitch. There is zero way I'd have agree to sign on that, and he needed both signatures to get the money if you both own the home, so he's got it easy with you.

Time to show him this thread so he can see that it's his mum or his marriage, and he is damn lucky to have you because I'd have been outta there.

'Play me once, I'm the fool. Play me twice, you're the fool.' You've already been played for £15k, don't make it a mortgage on this silly bitch's house.

Fuck 'being kind' and 'showing her she can't afford it! She doesn't give a shit! She only cares about herself and what she wants.