Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

Do not take out any loans for her. She has shown she is not to be trusted over repayments as she has not repaid you promptly.

Your DH should be putting you and DS first here and insisting his mother move to a property she can afford plus repays what she owes.

hmm. Sounds like she thinks that keeping the paintings at the moment is more important to her than you having to go back to work early in order to pay for her loan

I get that she is still upset and grieving but that doesn't give her the right to indefinitely not pay you the money she borrowed from you and promised to pay back in a given time frame. I can also understand that your dh doesn't want to push her at the moment but what would he say if you said to him 'fine, we'll let your mum keep the £15K. But just to make it fair, we need to give my parents £15K too'. Obviously I'm assuming that you're not actually going to do that - but it might make him think about why he thinks it is ok for you both to write off £15k to his mum but that he isn't even prepared to think about lending or giving the same amount to your parents. Might help him to appreciate your view point a little more?

I also think the having a mortgage for her in 3 years time sounds a complete nightmare. Do you think she is trying to sabotage your chances of moving on to a bigger house now so that you don't take out a big mortgage now and are therefore able to pay for her one in 3 years time - whereas if you take all you need now to get the house you need now, you might not be able to help her when she wants it?

Next time she mentions it, I would be up front and say that it's completely out of the question given the way she has refused to pay you back any of the money she owes you for 'just' £15K - can you imagine how much worse it would be if it were £100K or £200k? Yikes, doesn't really bear thinking about.

Don't right off 'witholding' your dc from seeing her. Even if it is something that you use in conversation or just for a week or two, or dial down the amount you see her - she is happy to ignore the hardships that she is imposing on you as a result of keeping the money beyond the promised repayment date. other than you talking to her about it occasionally and having to do a bit of handwringing and saying she is sorry for causing you problems, it's not affecting her in any way and she's not losing out on anything as a result of not paying back what she owes. So why should she bother - it's not causing her any grief or problems whatsoever. Even one or two afternoons missing out on her grandson might start to make her think about things - just saying that you're not coming over as you need to make economies due to her not repaying the loan. Doesn't have to be forever or a 'we're not coming until you pay up' threat - just a resigned 'I can see you're not taking us seriously when we say we need the money back NOW so I need to start economising now. and that includes visits to you.'

If things really are so bad for her - any chance of you switching houses with her? If she has a big house with space and you have a small flat - then - assuming location is OK - would definitely be something to say to her to make her think. Because if she thinks that your flat is too small for her - then how the bloody hell does she think it is big enough for you all to live there, which is what she is making you do by not giving you back your money... which then leads the conversation nicely back to 'give us our money back now. please. yes NOW.

Good luck - but unfortunately from your posts it does sound like you are in a bit of a lose lose situation at the moment

You know, you say she loves your DS... yet she is now strongly hinting you should put him as a very young baby into childcare rather than take your full maternity leave, solely so she can hang on to inanimate objects. And she's doing so in the full knowledge that you are in a cramped tiny flat with him when he could be in a nice little house with his own garden... and she is anticipating you guys underwriting her remaining in a big house, while her "loved" DGS remains in said cramped flat.

Weird sort of love that has utter disregard for the best interests of the supposed loved one, don't you think? Most of us show love by caring about the welfare of the person as much as or more than our own. What you describe is the opposite of love as I know it.

She cannot manage money in so many ways! She has run up credit card debt, and likely she will do it again. She is refusing to pay back the 15K, and now she wants you to pay her mortgage, as that is what is likely to happen. How many ways can she shaft you?

Your husband is the problem here. Personally, I'd be asking for my half of the £15,000 and getting out of there. How dare he defend her? She's effectively forcing you to live in an overcrowded flat, curtailing your maternity leave and all for her own selfish ends. And it is your husband who is enabling this behaviour! Honestly, you and your child seem to come a poor second to his batty mother. I would not put up with being treated like this.

Ghastly as it is, it might be worth acknowledging now that most people here don't reckon you'll be seeing the 15k again in a hurry. Plan accordingly.

MIL is taking the piss. No more money, certainly no dodgy arrangements, and a clear talk with your DH about how much his family will cost to feed and house are in order.

I'm really really sorry for you. Toxic in so many ways for your family, and none of it your fault.

The realisation that in this situation you could theoretically split with DH and be carrying 50% liability for this joint debt is also food for thought.

You could to a swap - get her to move into your little flat and you move into her 'nest' (bigger?) ? Or is that really mad? I am possibly in her generation and I would never do this to my DS or DD - life is far harder now for younger generations than it was for baby boomers when we were starting out. Another thing - we still have peeps in the generation above ours (frail-extreme-elderlies) needing financial sorting out/expensive live-in care/residential care etc etc. I hope this is not the case for you too. Your DH has to face up to his own mother or risk everything. Good luck! I sympathise.

Mm. I can almost hear her offering to do the childcare for your DS while you go back to earn. And then pointing out that it is her way of repaying the money.

Consider what you want. Then plan accordingly. You have my sympathy. It is complex.

The credit card debt is in itself worrying as it shows poor money management. What will happen when she runs into debt again?

Op, where have you gone?

Any progress or 'big talks' with DH?

Why does she need another mortgage in three years? Is her current one interest only?

No to the mortgage because quite apart from anything else, it would affect how much you can borrow now if you are planning to take out another mortgage in three years, even if it would be technically a "buy to let".

And I agree that she needs to see the consequences of her actions to get her to pay the money back, like less visits etc. Sounds cruel but at the moment she has no incentive to do anything about it.

Could it be that she wants you to go back to work as she has set herself up (in her head) as your childcare, by which she can say she is "paying you back" as you are not having to pay nursery costs?

X-post with FrequentFlyer about the childcare costs.....

"That's not an MIL, that's a full-blown con-artist. "

This.

Seriously, if your husband is going to ruin your family financially by continuing to pander to his manipulative, fraudster, thieving mother, then you need to separate yourself from him.

Thanks everyone, I'm going to be a bit tougher with my DH and tell him now that we're not going to help with the remortgage (my MIL is on a fixed rate interest only deal at the moment and it comes to an end in 3 years. However she doesnt have the option of then going onto standard variable rate). I'm hoping by that time she will see that she can't afford the maintenance on the house and wants to downsize anyway.

My DH has a younger brother but he doesn't have a full time job and hasn't had any work for a while. We help him out too (but he always pays us back). He's getting married this year and is renting so there's no way he could help with the mortgage. We've just bought him his wedding outfit he's so short of money.

I should make it clear that we're not rolling in money by any means and are desperately trying to save money for a deposit on a bigger place. however I don't have any family of my own and my DH's family have always been really kind to me.

Xx

I don't really see how your maternity leave is connected. Do you mean that she thinks you should go back to work to earn more money so that you won't need the 15k and she can get away with not paying it back? The two are not even connected. She owes you money and you don't need to justify your maternity choices to get it back.

I would talk straight to her. You say something like "We need that 15k we leant you. You agreed to sell the paintings to get it and so far in the last xx months you haven't sold a single one. Either we transfer that debt back into your name i.e. you take out a loan or credit card to give us that money back, or you sell the paintings in the next month (or however long you think is reasonable), which one is it going to be?" You could also say that you will sell the paintings for her. You may have issues though if she doesn't like how much you can get for them.

Definitely don't do the mortgage thing! Combined finances with family or anyone else (except between couples) is asking for trouble.

OMG this is why I have never understood interest only mortgages.

You get to the end of the term and you still owe all the money. She and her husband made no provision for the actual repayment of the capital borrowed.

So, in 3 years time the maintenance of the house will not be an issue compared to the fact that the lender could repossess it if she can't pay back the capital. Is it possible that people expect just to remortgage again once the interest only period is up? I am gobsmacked.

Perhaps she was just used to her husband taking care of all the financial stuff. Its possibly not sunk in yet that he died without actually making any provision for paying off the capital borrowed.

Perhaps there is equity in the house from house price rises, that would enable her to buy a smaller home? If so then you have 3 years to get her to see that this is what she needs to do. And if you and your husband fund any of it you need to get that all set out legally so that your part can't be taken to fund care home fees.

Perhaps she is a lady who always had other people provide for her financially and she just thinks it will all be ok again like it always has been in the past. It will all be a nasty shock for her to discover that she will be homeless in 3 years if she does not do something about her situation, but you need to have that chat...

My lovely friend has just sold her own house in order to buy a bigger house in a nicer place for her son, DIL and grand-daughters. (he has nightmare neighbours) She will now live in a shed/cabin she is going to build in another son's garden. That is what a truly loving mother will do to help her children. She is in her 60's , she is amazing! Anyway what your MIL is doing, grief or not, is manipulative and selfish. Could the paintings be fakes? Why does she need to remortgage, and how old is she? I am even wondering about the beginnings of dementia as she sounds so unrealistic and thoughtless.

I told my DH that I'm not happy to sign up to a mortgage, and that we need to manage my MIL's expectations and make her aware of it now. He's agreed, but in the sort of absent minded (I really dont want to talk about this now) way he uses when he's trying to placate me. Still at least he agreed and I've put a marker down. I think that's a positive step?

My MIL lives 200 miles away so a house swap isn't an option (I wish it were!). She only sees my DS every other month. Normally I organize (and pay for) visits as she keeps lamenting that she can't afford to come to London to visit us. However I think it's really important that she sees him (for both of them), and she phones me all the time to see how he is and to ask me to send photos.

Xx

You can't afford it either. There is a 15 grand hole in the finances.

I think you need to consider short term upset to produce long term stability for your family. Your Mil can't afford much, it would appear, but she isn't willing to give any of it up.

Fact is she knows that you both will continue to bail her out as long as she acts upset and wrings her hands , so she has no reason to take financial responsibility.

Sadly, it looks like she wants to see her grandchild less than she wants to keep her paintings.

It's a very small positive step that he's agreed to you but, from what you've written, it sounds like he agrees with whomever he happens to be at the time. A flip-flopper... I think you have to follow this up with a proper - head fully in the game not absent minded - conversation where you emphasise that you won't be signing over any more money to her. Then you hand him the telephone and make him tell Mommy Dearest that you've had a chat and the mortgage idea is a non-starter.

I think that this is a woman with absolutely no idea how to manage money because she has never had to. There is a crisis and someone else, first her late DH and now her DS, will sort it out for her. Its sad really, because I think that she probably really doesnt understand how precarious her position is and it will be hard for you both to make her understand that now she must take responsibility for herself.

I agree with Cogito that you need to have a sit down with DH and make it clear that you are not being placated, this is your line in the sand. Then tackle the paintings issue!

I'm starting to feel like I've opened a can of worms now, and am questioning whether my MIL does care that much about her grandson (or us for that matter). She didnt give him anything when he was born (not even a Teddy). I didnt mind but then ahortly after he was born she asked me if I had any outfits that DS hadn't worn and still had tags on as her neighbor had just had a grandson and she wanted to give him a gift!

I was really annoyed about it, and told her that there was a section in my DS's baby's book with birth gifts from grandparents and his was blank. So she gave him a little pink plastic monster which says unsuitable for children under 3 (she'd also left the discounted label saying £1.50 on it). I was not impressed.

However, to be fair I should mention that before her husband died and money became so tight she had offered to buy us our pram & pushchair, so I think she would like to be more generous if she felt she could. She also has a book of his photos that she takes everywhere and shows to everyone.

Separately, I also (unintentionally) got my DH thinking this morning, as I hadn't tidied away DS's playmat and toys last night as I normally do. He tripped over it this morning when he was getting ready and started moaning about how there wasn't room to move in our flat. I just shrugged and said "It's only going to get worse as he gets bigger". Perhaps I'm on to something here...no more tidying for me!

Do you think she's having trouble letting go of the paintings because they belonged to her husband and so are sentimental?