Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

'but as DH is clearly a pushover a more nuanced approach may be more likely to yield results.'

Sounds like she's been trying that for a year already, Chunder, and still doesn't have a pound back of that loan.

She has to get her husband willing to push this. Given his mother has a lifetime's expertise of manipulating him, and guilt-trips will work on him that unsettle the OP ("my nest" "his education cost so much" "I had far less maternity leave...") pointing out the undeniable truth that allowing her to keep up with this lifestyle is actually bad for her longterm as much as it is them might just shift his thinking.

I think the woman sounds as vulnerable as a barracuda, but that isn't about to get the OP's husband willing to take a firm line because he has a huge emotional investment in thinking of his DM affectionately. Denial is a damn sight comfier than facing the fact she's cheerfully planning to bleed him dry, I would imagine. Highlighting that she is relying on them bankrolling her if she stays where she is, and that they actually can't afford to do that, and she'd be best off moving while still young enough to build a new life somewhere else (and before throwing a lot of good money after bad, letting the house fall apart around her ears because she hasn't the cash to maintain it, thus reducing whatever equity she has to move on) may give him a way to square the circle.

You can't expect someone to look at all these facts and draw the logical conclusions when it's his mother, and he loves her. So given there's an alternative approach that allows him his illusions while still being honest and (above all) getting the OP's money and her MIL off their payroll, well, it certainly sounds like it would be worth a try, surely?

Op, so sorry it's not resolved.

I think that, if you are going to go and get things to auction, don't do it in dribs and drabs. There is no point in paying several lots of auction fees and commission, no to mention the hassle of dealing with this in stages.

So go, and take everything you need to take to get the loan paid off. Then I think you need to shut up shop on any further loans, at the very least until after mat leave and not before MIL has given you full access so you know what is really going on.

Just to respond to a couple of questions: I don't think my husband really has a plan to deal with this situation. I think he was prepared to bury his head in the sand and hope his mother paid up at some stage. Alternatively, he may be hoping to be promoted at work which would give us more leverage to help with a mortgage, but this isn't going to happen for at least 18 months.

Ive had a look and my MIl could move to a 3 bedroom bungalow or semi for approx. £180,000 in her area, which she could afford and would allow her to pay off some debt and free up her pension.

My PIL still have a mortgage, even though they have lived there so long, as they have been releasing equity every so often and remortgaging. Believe it or not - my FIL was a financial advisor, so it is particularly bizarre that they are in such a mess.

The responses here have made me see that we need to stop being so supportive and reassuring her that she won't lose the house, and start making her see that she can't afford to stay where she is. The problem is getting her to agree as she has lived in the house for all her married life (over 30 years) and it will be a huge wrench for her to move (and come down - she is very much the grand dame). After all the problems with the loan, however, I am feeling much less sympathetic and there is no way we will be taking on her mortgage. So she's not really going to have much choice when it comes down to it, but we have a couple of years until her mortgage expires to make her see sense.

I don't think you would be able to take on her mortgage, or take out a mortgage in your name against her house. If a bank would give you a mortgage at all I presume they would need your house as collateral? And that wouldn't happen, would it??? NOt for a woman with her track record of living beyond her means and not repaying debts!

Why are you making this your job, OP? This is like teaching a dog to read: a useless endeavour, a complete waste of energy. She will continue manipulating and emotionally blackmailing until she hits a brick wall: mortgage is up and you will NOT be taking it on for her. The simpler you make this, the better, because manipulative people like this will use any chink in the armour to try to get their way. So there's none in, right now, making it clear to her that you will not be taking on a mortgage for her.

The rest is her lookout.

She is an adult. STOP enabling her, and your husband cannot without your complicity, he does not have the income to take that on. So don't agree to it. If he puts his toxic, narc mum above his family, you have your answer.

'We can't take on your mortgage, you have to make other arrangements.' Press repeat and play over and over again. And leave her to it.

When it runs out, she can do what other adults do and sell up.

Because this is NOT.YOUR.PROBLEM.

'The problem is getting her to agree as she has lived in the house for all her married life (over 30 years) and it will be a huge wrench for her to move (and come down - she is very much the grand dame).'

Boo-fucking-hoo. Not.your.problem. People have to do this all the time, with far fewer resources, after grave bereavements.

Stop pandering to this person, it was already cost your family £15K that she won't pay back unless forced.

Expat is right, shil. You don't have to 'get her to agree'. Once her mortgage is up, all you have to do is say 'no can do' (which you won't be able to anyway), and the decision will be made for her, by the bank.

Obviously it would be better if she made that decision earlier and stopped wasting so much money on interest and debts, but that's her look out, in the end.

I don't understand why you say if your dh gets a rise 18 months, you can help with her mortgage.

Why on earth would you do that? Will you be happy to have no more dc, stay in your flat, no garden for you all, which you say is already cramped, and you give up your maternity leave and your dh work extra hard and extra hours to keep her in a lovely big house surrounded by her bits? And pay for her weekends away to see your ds? Are you serious?

Your dh has got to step up. Because if it were me, I would be starting to wonder now if this was what I wanted in life, and maybe you want different things.

Tell her - either you sell up now, and pay us back, get somewhere cheaper for yourself with all this art etc.

Or, you sell the art now and pay us back, wait two years then sell.

The cost of paying the mortgage debt off - its only two years and the penalty, if there is one, is low. paying off all her debts now ( including YOU, all of it, not just 15k) outrides hanging around for two years and selling because she has to. The price will be dictated by the buyer and what they are prepared to pay. Not what its worth in her head.

Stop giving this woman the idea you are going to sub her! Its not helping her. Your dh is not her dh. He has a family of his own. You and your ds come first.

I think it's pretty hard to feel sorry for someone who is potentially getting others into debt, but could actually sell artwork & downsize!

I'd focus on the 15k. Leave the rest to sort itself out. When you have to have that fight with your DH, focus on how you don't see how allowing her to keep living in massive debt when she can avoid it is in her interests and you won't enable it when it damages your own family. But I wouldn't worry about it ahead of time. The thing is, even if she's not as rich as they made out and hasn't the money to live as she wants, she's still perfectly comfortably off by most standards. She has a decent pension, decent amount of equity and assets she can sell. She just wants you to pay for her to live the life of Riley, which, you know - tough. But there's no point having that row ahead of time. When the moment arrives you can tell your DH taking that mortgage out will reduce you to poverty (because she very, very obviously won't pay it herself) as well as trap you in your flat, and then when he tries to argue that she would you can point out that in that case it won't solve her problems, because she can't afford a house that size on her income. So you'd be taking on a risk that doesn't benefit her.

I do see though that it isn't really MIL you're worried about by now, it's convincing your DH. That's hard, and I am honestly sorry. But logically, her suggestion is madness. It depends on her either continuing to live a lifestyle she can't afford, or you bankrolling her which you can't afford either. She has to sell up, really. If he looks at the facts he can't really escape that - and by then it will be 4 years after FIL's death. How long will your DH swallow the grieving widow routine, and if you've bought yourselves by then (why not, if what she was saying was the truth?) you'll almost certainly find no lender will let you have the money anyway.

Again, I'm so sorry she's put you in this mess. Unforgivably selfish and self-indulgent.

she is very much the grand dame

And right there, IMO, is the heart of the problem. And with your Michelin restaurant patronising late FIL, too. Being seen as successful mattered more to them than genuine solvency.

He cannot do it without her complicity as she is on the mortgage, too, and he needs the dual incomes, if the bank even allows it. So there's no need to convince him of FA. Just, 'No, I won't agree to or sign this because it's financial suicide and the kids are worth more than that.' End of. He balks, tough, he can't do it without her permission. He bullies, and sorry, OP, but that's financial abuse.

I've been on this thread from the very beginning and I just feel that your DH is totally under the thumb and his brother has buggered off and washed his hands of the whole sorry mess.

I struggle to see how your marriage can recover from this if you're left lacking a serious amount of ££, in a work/ childcare situation you can't abide and bankrolling Scrooge McDuck (your MIL) who is rolling around laughing amongst her masterpiece artwork.

I do agree about focusing on the £15k for now, too. You've obviously had a lot of conditioning from your ILs and DH to even think you are 'taking an old lady's possessions' because everyone here seen it for the truth it is: a person who is more than comfortably-off happy to see her grandchildren in a tiny flat and you selling jewellery rather than honour her financial commitment to you all.

You cannot change your DH's FOG attitude to his narc mother but you can change yours by no longer allowing yourself to participate in it or subsidise this person at your family's expense.

'No, I'm not doing that.' 'Stop bullying me about this, I am no longer subsidising MIL.' 'It was a loan not a gift because we need that money for our childrens' future, so I'm going to go ahead with (XYZ).'

'Oh, you're so rude to her.' 'And taking £15K from your grandchildren who are trapped in a tiny flat till it's paid back isn't rude?' 'You shouldn't speak to her like that!' 'I shouldn't have to, but we need the money for our children's future.' 'I won't have you treat her like that!' 'And I won't have our children treated like this, either.'

The most generous way to enable this would be to book a trip down there ASAP.

Sit her down and explain firmly that you are not going to be able to sub her mortgage in a couple of years time, so therefore, painful though it is, she has to move. Show her how, by selling, she could solve all her problems in one go: paying off all debt, keeping pictures etc. Paint the alternative picture of having to leave anyway when the mortgage expires, which would not be at a time or in a manner of her choosing.

Arrange a series of viewings with an estate agent. Pre-select the houses so that they are likely to appeal to her. Be kind but firm if any waterworks emerge. Encourage her to think of putting her house on the market ASAP so that it sells and she could potentially be re-settled before Christmas. Offer to help her move .

No one could accuse you of being anything other than helpful, but you need to act on this sooner rather than later.

I agree with expat on the required attitude shift. As I said before, MIL is eating her own young here. Your DH needs to consider who he's responsible for housing, feeding and clothing: his infant child, or his mother? It isn't like MIL is destitute in the least. Just entitled and extravagant. Even after she moves, she'll still probably be living in a bigger house than that you and DH are aspiring to for your family.

And it does occur that she and her DH have spent the past decades living off the self-same house price inflation which is costing our generation dearly, which in a way really takes the biscuit about her housing-related selfishness here now. It's not her fault, but you're struggling to reach the housing rung of a basic family home... while she was in a position to ride that wave and be mortgage free with a 6 bed property worth a huge multiple of what they originally paid for it, but they chose not to do that - so having spent a lot of that capital appreciation, plus all their capital repayments too, she's now expecting you to subsidise their profligacy at the other end instead of getting your own family decently housed. She was part of a massively lucky generation and wasted that opportunity by her own choice.

Branchingout, I wouldn't do that until they have the £15k back. A bitter and resentful MIL doesn't sound to me like one who will repay them in a hurry. One with an eye on using their mortgaging potential might.

My DH said your DH could do a lot more to support you. We think that your DH doesn't want to upset his mother and would probably rather just 'leave the situation'.

I think you are going to be in for a long haul from the sounds of it. You sound really nice so I can hope you get your money back.

I'm not so nice. If it was me, I'd be thinking of my children's inheritance and their ability to live more comfortably, and I'd do everything to get my money back+interest. NOW with a far more 'legally enforced' approached than this 'nicey nicey....approach'..

I'm not sure how you have the patience OP.

Just remember that it does pay to be a bitch sometimes - it'll only be then you'd get taken seriously.

Perhaps it's also time to start shifting the focus away from her expectation that she can carry on living the way she did when FIL was alive and they clearly lived beyond their means in order to 'keep up appearances' - he let her down badly by not planning for the future, and the chickens have now come home to roost. It's not up to you and DH to continue to keep her in the manner to which she became accustomed - she and FIL should have been planning for this time and they weren't, so now is the time for a long overdue readjustment.

She's been playing nice for nearly a year, Chunder, it's got them nowhere.

I agree that it's well past the point of full-on 'playing nice'. But as some posters have said upthread, if the OP makes it clear now that there will be no remortgage coming from them, they will certainly never see any of the 15K again. They may well not do anyway, of course. But the point to consider is whether it's worth a shot at getting the 15K back by suggesting that if the MIL repaid that, by selling the artwork, the bank would look a lot more favourably on a remortgage request. Then if you get your money, or a decent chunk of it, I would allude to a meeting wit the bank manager where you discover, to your surprise, that lending principles have been considerably tightened up an they're not willing to give you anything at all. Who'd have thought it? Terrible shame but it looks as if there will now be no option for you, MIL, but to sell up and downsize after all... And given the way she has manipulated the situation, I wouldn't feel guilty about this though the OP is clearly nicer than me and might struggle on that score

It's a question of tactics. Try the strategic approach and see whether there is any chance of recovering a good chunk of the 15K. Or write if off now and go hardcore from the outset. The end result should be the same though: no remortgaging, and MIL realising she has to sell.