Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

[NB - novel plot spoilers below!]

If your DH has a birthday coming up, why not treat him to The Irresistable Inheritance of Wilberforce, by Paul Torday.

Wilberforce is a wine conoisseur alcoholic with serious money problems, too. Chillingly, his "collection" may not be worth what he paid, meaning he's not only bankrupt financially but also culturally. He may have been swindled by the mentor who sold him the "inheritance" of his wine cellar, but he (Wilberforce) has done a lot of his own sinning, too.

Don't read it yourself, or it will freak you out, whereas it's your DH who needs to see the terrifying parallels and start to see the situation from a different angle!

I would go to bank and arrange a 15K loan so that you can carry on your own life as before and pay your debts, though not sure how easy that is nowadays, maybe say you are buying a car.

And ignore MIL as it is your DH's issue (to sort out his DM) not yours.

I raised the loan again with her today, but she acts like it's my problem and she has no control over it. I told her I was going to have to start selling the few items of jewelry Ive got to try to fund my maternity leave, and she commiserated with me. I told her I had to as I was desperate.

I would be raging at this, if I were you - and the pathetic sale of a few bits and bobs she doesn't like are not a start. They are a sop.

I'm so sorry for you - you're in a horrible and difficult position - but I think this is going to eat away at you until you get it resolved. She absolutely needs to repay you, and your DH needs to sort it out.

I also think the time has come to show your DH this thread, tbh OP. I think he might be surprised to see how this appears to independent observers.

Arguably, you've been defrauded. And she intends to defraud you for considerably more with the new mortgage. She's even justifying the purloining of your money, when stating she is entitled to your money because she educated your husband. If that was her position - why ask for a 3 month loan in the first place? Why mention the art as making her repayment guaranteed, and simple? Why make out she just needs a little short-term borrowing of your access to credit, instead of flat out asking for tens of thousands from you? Because she knew you'd say no, that's why. Obtaining pecuniary advantage from another by deception - no?

She plays the grieving widow when you need your money back, then trots capably to the bank to negotiate accessing vastly more when it suits. I'm not seeing much about her that is fragile and in need of protection, tbh.

This has left me slack jawed.

You sound far too nice and I bet she knows it. Afraid your DH is choosing to not face up to his mum - maybe he's not that scared of you either.

Sorry but I get irate when perfectly lovely, generous, honourable people get shafted by others, especially family and especially when that is your only family. Bet she wouldn't be so bold if you had a mother or father in the background on your side.

The only way to deal with people like this is to drop the niceties. This includes DH and MIL, she's bad and he's allowing her to be so he's complicit in making your and your child's life hard. Put it in writing to your mil tell her you will take it further and if it causes problems in your married life she is responsible and you will tell everyone how she is spoiling your child's formative months.
She seems superficial from what you've said, the type of person who likes to put in a front. Don't allow this. Rip the facade away. Don't think of it as your money think of it as your child's future. I can tolerate a lot on my part but when it comes to my kids I'll kill for them!

Are you sure that she hasn't already sold the paintings etc, and spent the profits?

No way would I reduce the length of my maternity leave in order to avoid a fall-out with my mil.
Surely it would be quite normal for a widow to hand over a financial matter (ie selling the art) to her family to deal with. That is what has to happen I'm afraid. I cannot imagine being able to write-off a debt of that amount - it's not as if she has no means to pay, she just doesn't have the motivation!

Its time you started kicking some arse and sticking up for yourself!

Stop taking this shit from her and making comments about how skint you are and expecting her to do the right thing.

Thanks again for all the advice and support. I had a huge row about the situation with my husband again last night, and decided enough was enough. I rang my MIl today and told her in no uncertain terms that it was damaging my marriage and that we need the money back.

She sounded quite shaken and offered to start paying back £150 a month. I explained to her that it would take over 8 years to pay off at that rate and that we needed repaying asap for my maternity and to move home and that she had to sell some works of art.

She started arguing saying that she had some items in for auction (the two I mentioned earlier) and was doing her best. She also said she was happy to sell but not for peanuts, and that I had told her that the auction house had valued an item at £300 (when in fact they had valued it at £2-3,000 and I had told her so - so I have no idea where that came from!). She also got really cross when I referred to a ceramic as being "white" (which it is) and used that to start saying that the valuer had no idea what he was talking about as it is in fact "ivory". I tried to tell her that it was my description for it, just to identify it, but she was off on a rant and there was no stopping her.

I'm sorry to go into such detail, but some of my conversations with her are so surreal. My head is spinning and I want to know what other people think! Is she just really confused or playing games?

When we lent her the money she said she was going to sell certain items to repay us. I reminded her of this. She said she couldn't get them to London so I told her that we would take them away with us to put into auction next time we visit. She eventually agreed that we could take one with us to see how it does. It's worth about £2,000, so that would be really really helpful.

I do feel pretty mean taking an old lady's cherished possessions and she's not making it easy. It is like pulling teeth. My husband is also really disappointed and angry with me after our row last night as I was pretty rude about my MIL .

WELL DONE OP!

And don't feel bad in the slightest. She's not a dear little old lady. She's a con artist with an absolutely stellar DIL whom she is massively exploiting. If your DH doesn't like you saying what I'm sure are far nicer things than we all are about his mama, he needs to be the one sorting this mess out!

She offered you £150 a month? For a debt that size when it was shouldered on the understanding it was repaid inside 3 months?! Wow. Should we try that with the bank, d'you think?

You aren't taking an old lady's cherished possessions; you've paid for her to have a year with them past the point she could begin to afford that from her own funds, at huge emotional and financial cost to yourself. And she was trying to gaslight you in that conversation, too. Well done you for refusing to just allow her to keep doing this to you - and to your son, too.

Your MIL has a choice sell the valuables or sell the house and downsize.

Classic derailment.

You start a discussion about (a) and eventually find yourself putting the phone down on an argument about (b) and wondering whatthe hell happened.

She doesnt want to sell and won't, so you need to keep pushing it. You have made a brilliant start, by her reaction she clearly didnt expect you to insist as you did. Keep those balls you have grown and insist on taking enough art to cover what she owes (plus interest).

Go you :)

About derailment, I used to fall for it every single time and even now I have to pull my brain together to not fall for it, and sometimes fail!

She is a very clever manipulator. I find that writing on my hand the issue I want to discuss really helps. I look down and it reminds me that no, we are not talking about whether a ceramic is ivory or white, but about the money she owes me!

Your MIL has a choice sell the valuables or sell the house and downsize.

Yes - that's a really excellent point. She can't afford her house anyway, can she? She could repay her existing debts and still keep the valuables, because if she's 200 miles outside London she's north of Cumbria, in Cornwall, or in extreme West Wales. None of those places are known for rocketing house prices unless you live in a tourist/second home trap. She could be spending all her pension money on herself, in a two bed cottage/flat she owns mortgage free, with most of her antiques around her. She's still doing what she and her husband did to get her into this mess in the first place - living well beyond their means.

Well done OP.

TBH your dh is annoying me, he needs to grow some balls of steel and tell his Mum she cannot afford to stay there.

I asked upthread but - as your DH also wants to move, what is his solution?

Tell her that she can keep two of the paintings, and she needs to pick the two that have the most sentimental value for her. The rest will have to go to auction. You will be coming down on X day to pick them up and get them to London for her. Don't take your DS with you that day. If she balks at it and tries to make excuses when you get there, tell her you will be leaving and not coming back, or contacting her, till she changes her mind. Your husband will want to chicken out, so you will have to tell him this is a deal breaker for you and unless you get the stuff to be sold, all bets are off regarding your future together.

Wrt her mortgage, has she told the mortgage company that her dh has died? My aunt was in a similar position, interest only mortgage that she couldn't afford alone so when her dh died she didn't inform the company. When they found out (about 3 years later) they refused to give her a mortgage as her income wasn't enough, ignoring the fact that she had made repayments for the whole 3 years, and repossessed her house. Your mil may not have the choice about downsizing or not and could be left with very little equity (especially after all her debts are paid off).

"MIL it's necessary to repay the loan we gave you. Mr X will be coming round from (name of antique place) next week and valuing goods to the sum of 15000. He will send a van for them after that"

Stop this piddling with 2000 here and there. This plaster needs ripping off.

Why didn't your DH ring his own mum? Is he in a dreamland where he thinks she's doing nothing wrong and thus shouldn't be tackled?

Good job on getting tough, OP.

I do feel pretty mean taking an old lady's cherished possessions

Well she didn't feel bad about taking your 15k did she?! Believe me, she is absolutely counting on you feeling mean. Don't back down.

She's already derailed one auctioneer as well. Take another one (or the same one) with you. That way she can't be 'uncomfortable' with a stranger in the house on her own.

Is your dh on side now following the massive row?

it really amazes me how the facade she has created of her life is more important to her than peace of mind.

I'm gobsmacked by the situation you are in op. Your mil has had her life, a nice life I bet and you do not owe her a penny more. Who is paying the interest on this loan?

If it was me, I'd threaten the following:
Either your dh or mil steps up and paying back... Or you start bringing loan recovery companies in and trust me, they will take care of the situation in a way your mil WILL have to take them seriously.

I'd start getting legal advice to a beneficial charge on her home if at all possible.

You do not need her bullshit when you've just had a baby. Do not back down else you will not see a penny of that loan back.