Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

I think while you're on ML you will have to only feed him on beans and Iceland chips? When he mentions it, suggest you look closely at the budgetting together....

He needs to feel the full effects.

Sorry, OP, but your husband is a twat. Sell the jewellery, it's not his, and he should be 'hurt' at how his mother treats his son. Please start separating your finances from him and get your will changed!

What is it with this man and loans?! He seems to have a blind spot about them, inherited from his mother!

He does know that they have to be paid back doesnt he? From an income that will be hit by childcare costs and replacing savings so you can move?

Sorry OP but the more I read the more I think that you seriously need to consider your future. Your MIL may have spunked your £15k up the wall, but I am very concerned that your husband may well cost you a hell of a lot more than that.

It isnt just your MIL that thinks more of possessions than people is it? :(

Goodness.

'Gift' in this family does seem to mean 'item of value to me which I will now pretend is yours until you want to sell it'.

But every possession you own seems to come with sentimental value attached. Whereas your ability to stay at home with your ds has no value whatsoever? I'm amazed your DH didn't say this necklace was part of the family. Like the car(s), and the paintings, and the big house no-one can afford. Everything, in fact, except his family.

The fact is, the answer to your staying on ML is not to take out another loan. This, presumably, would be on the basis that it will be a short time before the first loan is paid back (which is not based on evidence to date). And even if it is, it means a chunk of that money will end up whizzing in and out of your account to settle the second loan. It makes no sense. It's the attitude that leaves people remortgaging their house over and over again to 'free up capital' (or more truthfully borrow money they don't have).

My guess is, if your MIL gets wind of the plan to sell the necklace she will demand it back. And then, like the 'gift' of the classic car, it will turn out to have been nothing of the sort. And you'll be left being pressured on every side not to upset the widow or rock the boat too much, because they know the only option you truly have is to leave your DH and you won't do that. So you have no power in this situation.

The necklace has substantially more sentimental value than the car. I think you tell your DH that one or the other has to go, and let him choose which.

Wow - so your DH was happy to let you sell "your" jewellery, which presumably has sentimental value to you and which you actually use, but not a gawd awful necklace from your MIL that is so unfashionable that they will struggle to sell it.

You can't afford to get your haircut or buy a paper and meanwhile you are lending your BIL money for his wedding outfit and your MIL is donating cash that she doesn't have to the Tory party.

What's your DH's contribution to your financial austerity plan? Is he taking in pack lunches, not buying anything, denying himself a coffee?My guess is he is doing no such thing.

Shil - you didn't cause this financial problem, you can't solve it singlehandedly. Stop with the extreme frugality on your side, it's causing you unhappiness and it isn't doing anything to solve the core problem.

Shame you mentioned the necklace to your DH, you could have gone and sold it without telling either of them and they would have been none the wiser. Yes that way madness lies, I know.

Shil I just don't see this ending well because your dh seems to be in denial that the problem is as big as it really is. You just can't keep borrowing money - how does he expect to pay it back?

Tell him your time on maternity leave has far more sentimental value to you than any bloody necklace.

FFS his priorities are screwed.

It seemed that you got through to him when you talked about the timescale and being less further on than when you lent the money.

The fact is that you and he are going to be further disadvantaged pretty soon. How about if you drew up a projection of finances on a year planner, with points by which you need to have recouped a certain amount of money, then talked about how to do it. Obviously nothing will be done between now and visiting MIL but if you could get some saleable items off her, you could recoup some of the money approximately three months after that date and mark that on the calendar.

I'm only putting this forward as my DH is pretty nebulous about money, how it arrives and where it goes. We work for it and it appears! It's magic. But if I show him on a diagram where we can save some of it and put it so it grows, he 'gets' it (his default would be to just spend it and go into overdraft and shrug). It's just how his mind works. Money is filed as 'hard' so he prefers to think about other things. Diagrams and maps are 'not hard' in his world. Ergo it starts to make sense.

Good for you selling the necklace. If MIL is horrified, then tough. Tell her your options were selling that or not having enough money to buy food (which without a loan is kind of true). It would be a good opportunity to tell her that no repaying the loan has left you in dire financial straits and meant you need to take drastic actions. She is the reason you are selling this. Don't let your DH or her turn it on you.

I was wondering, have you asked your DH what his mid/long term plans are to recover this loan? If you ask in a "right, we're in this together, lets sort it out as a team" way then you can get him to consider it as the two of you solving a problem rather than you against his family. I think if you logically get him to consider the ways to recover the money, he'll come to the same conclusions we have surely? Because apart from write it off, there aren't any other answers. probably overly hopeful

Originalandbest:
Wow - so your DH was happy to let you sell "your" jewellery, which presumably has sentimental value to you and which you actually use, but not a gawd awful necklace from your MIL that is so unfashionable that they will struggle to sell it.

Bloody hell, I forgot that, that is outrageous! that would have me seething and marching to the pawn shop with every item she'd even given me down to socks.

"DH, we need the money. We can sell the gift car, the MG, the necklace or some of your mother's goods so she can start to repay us. I really don't mind which is sold but something must be. Whichever will cause you the least sentimental pain, DH, is fine, but you need to choose one item."

Shil, it seems to me your dh thinks of him and you as being individuals not a married couple that are sharing finances, debts etc. if he borrows money to " buy" your necklace, he has a necklace worth x and you have x, but he now has a loan, which will impact more on your joint financial net worth.

Or does he see that as his business?

So, does he see him and his mum as a family and you as a separate entity? Not sure where your ds fits in.

And can I ask, who is funding your ML? Is it you? Do you know what he earns and does he see that money as family money or his money? How does he see your money? As money for ds and you?

There is a saying " what's yours is mine, and what's mine is my own" it appears your dh thinks that and so does mil.

I do feel for you, but I think its time you thought more as an individual because expecting your dh to have the same values and priorities as you is a mistake. You need to ring fence your assets. And think about will this all be over by spring, or more of it heading your way for ever and ever? Can you live like that, subsidising his dm, whilst you work and live as you are?

You might want to check your dh finances and debt. Just in case.

Oh Shil, they're really putting you through it aren't they - it's awful that you're enduring so much stress and worry because you were kind enough to help out MIL with a supposedly short term loan that's turned out to be nothing of the sort.

How dare he go "ballistic" at you ! Excuse my language but what the fuck else does he expect you to do ? You're trying to raise money without having to resort to further debt, or to eat into important savings and he, although in theory he could sell the £8k car is refusing to do so.

I strongly suspect he went ballistic because Mummy dearest will be upset by you disposing of this necklace. Everything seems to be about not rocking the boat, not "upsetting" MIL. He won't sell the car because, presumably, she'd be upset about that. He won't really lay it on the line with her and get too heavy by insisting that she hands over however many and whichever artefacts would pay off the loan because that'd "upset" her as well. He hasn't, as yet, sat down with her and suggested that she look to downsize, thus enabling her to pay off her own debt and reduce the costs associated with keeping a very large house (though obviously he can't force her to do this) because .... yep, you guessed it, that thought would be even more upsetting.

But it's okay to upset YOU !!!

If both the car and the necklace went you could potentially raise £12k - which I'm guessing would probably allow you to have full ML without loans or eroding savings. So bloody what if MIL doesn't like that - frankly those sales would be none of her business and in any case, if she paid back her "loan" you wouldn't even have to consider those measures.

I'm so angry for you ........ in my past I knew someone who played very much on the "poor widow" scenario to avoid things she didn't want to do, to be mean and to act entitled. I could write a book about her, the details of which would make your hair stand on end. However, this isn't the time or place and the situation was rather different because thankfully this person hadn't borrowed a large sum of money (though took advantage left right and centre). The thing is, just how long is this "poor widow" x "grand dame" attitude going to continue and be used as an excuse both by her - and by your DH - to avoid doing what needs to be done. I think you've mentioned a couple of times that you avoided speaking to her around the anniversary of FIL's death - which was a kind and compassionate thing to do - but I also have this gut feeling that DH is reluctant to upset her because she's still grieving. I think you also mentioned in one of your posts that he pointed out he'd lost his father ...... almost as if this fact excused his and her bad behaviour. I know this might sound hard - but death is a fact of life. Of course people grieve - I can still cry for my dad more than 20 years after he died - but bereavement does not give people carte blanche to behave badly. A cliché, but life goes on - and MIL shouldn't be tiptoed about over something as important as this.

If you could sell both things it'd certainly give you some breathing space and your DH has got to see - barring a miracle - that that really is the only option. All this loan talk is selfish and ridiculous when they're not necessary. I really hope you can convince him to see this - and if you do, that it by no means lets MIL off the hook. It doesn't mean you/he ease up on demanding the money back and it certainly doesn't mean the loan is written off.

Actually as much as I am totally on your side I wouldn't sell the necklace. I think you will lose the moral high ground if you do. If you don't actually need the money right this second to feed your child or pay your mortgage I think your DH and his mother will start to see you as money grabbing and vindictive(which you're not). I would however use it as a bargaining tool when dealing with your DH and your MIL. Make a list of assets that can be sold to fund your maternity leave and include it. You can always sell it later. I also think you shouldn't go to see your MIL in November. Say you can't afford it. Your shortage of £15,000 has to start affecting her or she won't give a shit. This is for your DH to sort and if he won't then you will have to sell the necklace. If you are at her house removing her stuff you will be the baddie forever.
I also think the £15,000 is a right off. No-one seems the least bit concerned to actually sort out your MIL's finances.

I agree with tobiasfunke and wouldn't sell the necklace. The arrangement was to sell the "antiques" and I feel that this is probably the way to go.
Your DH seems to place much store on "sentimental" objects and I feel that you will lose the moral high ground if you sell the necklace.
Your DH has obviously grown up with the idea of "well if we can't afford it we will get a loan!". He need gentle re-educating.
Good Luck Shil!

The tears comment was to the pp telling you to put on tears in future. I am not surprised you cried.

DH and MIL are both convinced they are a cut above socially, aren't they - very bad attack of the Hyacinth buckets I suspect. They really see themselves as thoroughly upper middle class with money - one pesky little detail tho', there isn't any.

As it happens, a lot of UMC types would get shot of their stuff at the first sniff of trouble, but clearly your ILs and DH are very, very attached. A lot of their personal identity is bound up in these possessions. You tinker with that bond at your peril.

But you have to persevere - the old girl MIL is clearly determined to stay on as lady of the manor and will get nasty if anything threatens that. The only leverage I can think of - given her self-worth depends on how rich people think she is - is to suggest that a financial collapse wouldn't make her look good, and without action on her behalf, collapse is what she's facing.

The plus in the whole affair is that I suspect she has started to discount you and DH as her source of lifestyle subsidy in the future. She may keep trying, however.

It's not just about 'funding maternity leave', though, is it?

It's the fact that you agreed to lend, not give her, the £15 000, because like most of us, you are not rich enough to go doling out thousands to people.

Why do MIL and H seem to think you are rich enough to do that?

It's actually not just the money that she's keeping, it's opportunity.
A bit of money like that is savings, and savings bring freedom to perhaps go for opportunities that come up randomly.
Knowing that she is controlling this small and unquantifiable part of your life must be very hard.
(Not that I'm advocating talking to her about it like this!)

Shil, stick in there...you are doing a good job. Your DH is having to learn about money in the real world.
My DH and MiL are like yours.
My DH thinks that 'it will always work out ok and that a loan will tide you over so that you can hold on to everything', eternally optimistic that earning power will cover the short term gaps. He and his mother think that they can always ride the storm. It has taken some serious effort on my part to prove otherwise, including me giving the ultimatum : it will be her or me.
Please don't waver from what you are doing..we are all supporting you.
I don't think your DH is a bad man, rather he is having to rethink, unexpectedly, the culture and relationships in which he has grown up, and he hasn't quite got there yet.

OP, upthread your DH was frustrated by your small flat. Did he make the link between your financial state and your ability to move? Further loans would be taken into account when considering a mortgage application.

When you're a married couple there is no such thing as "buying it off you" via a loan. If you got divorced, the assets would be split with 50/50 as the starting point, so the loan would be deducted from overall expenses. Your expenses come out of the family pot as well, so the interest and repayments would come out of your joint funds too during your married life until it's repaid.

Really appalling that they can so casually accept you selling items of sentimental value to you, but react so hysterically to selling items they care about - when the problem is down to THEIR extravagance and fecklessness. They're happy, it seems, for others to pay for their lifestyle just as long as they don't have to. Which is the root of the entire sodding problem - it's the family way, it seems.

You are doing so well, Shil. It's horrible you need to, but I am in so much awe of how well you are handling what is basically a nightmare scenario.

Could you suggest to your husband that you sell the necklace and car and set both against the overall balance? Yes, I know those are already your possessions so it's an absolute bloody cheek, but it would give you the moral high ground, and the reality is that you can't force this. You can point out that you are suggesting selling yours and DH's own assets to cover her debt, here. If they say no you can then say fine, but in that case they have to sell other antiques from a far stronger position.

I hate that you are in this place, it's so very wrong. But I repeat: I think you're handling it with dignity and guts.

This sounds awful - I realise money is tight but it is worth looking into some sessions with a counsellor or mediator to thrash out a joint way forward? If you have assets you would not particularly miss (a classic car that lives with someone else and a necklace you never wear) worth £10k I can't see any sensible person suggesting you shouldn't sell them to take the pressure off in the short term. If anything you would be role modelling for MIL what she needs to do herself. But somehow you have to take the emotion out of it all.

I have differences of opinion re money & budgeting with my DH and it is stressful - I think it should be covered much more in pre-marriage preparation (not that as godless types we did any ).

This thread keeps reminding me of a story in a book "10 stupid things that couples do that threaten their relationship" under the category "Stupid Priorities ":

A poppa bird was caught in a storm with 3 baby birds. He wanted to take them all to safety,but didn't know if there was time. He picked up the first baby bird and carried him over the raging river. As they flew the poppa bird asked, "Baby bird, will you always take care of me? Even when you have your own baby birds?" The baby bird, looking down at the swift current, answered excitedly, " oh yes, Poppa anything you need at any time, I'll be there to take care of you, no matter what it takes."

The poppa bird dropped the baby bird into the river and flew back to to get the second bird. The same dialogue occurred, and the second baby bird was also dropped to his death.

As the poppa bird flew over the flood waters with the last baby bird, he asked him the same question, "Baby Bird, will you always take care of me? Even when you have your own baby birds?"

This baby bird said, "Poppa, I can promise you that I will always take care of my babies the way you have always taken care of us."

This baby bird was carried to safety in its father's beak. Why? Because it is the order of things that when you leave your parent's nest, you take what you 've learned from them, apply it to your own family, and that is the best way to honour your parents.

Sorry it's a bit long and may or may not be helpful, but it just kept echoeing through my head. Your DH is stuck and he needs to understand that you and DS must be his priorities now.