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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

859 replies

shil0846 · 23/09/2013 09:38

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

OP posts:
DustBunnyFarmer · 28/10/2013 22:36

That and money pit MIL, of course.

God Shil, you have my sympathies and admiration - as others have said, you've come a long way in a short space if time.

auntpetunia · 28/10/2013 22:38

have read this from the beginning getting more and more shocked, first by your MIL but latterly by your DH, what a pair, cars and paintings more important than baby and wife's mat leave. Have no real advice but love Randoms emotional blackmail angle, definitely things to say to any family member about any activity you'd like to do, make sure everyone knows the position she has put you in.

You are doing brilliantly.

DustBunnyFarmer · 28/10/2013 22:47

Thinking about it, shil should be asking MIL to buy her ticket for the November meeting given the massive economy drive she's on whilst MIL can afford to piss it up a wall.

Also think shil should not go after the MIL despite DH giving his blessing. It just feeds his case that its interpersonal difficulties between the two of you, whilst he continues to completely abdicate any responsibility for your future financial stability and managing his mother's expectations. Don't do it - there's some truth to that saying "fools rush gladly in where angels fear to tread". Don't let him get away with making this a problem about you and her. It isn't!

TheIggorcist · 28/10/2013 22:47

How about telling her what will happen, no questions - " mil I'll be arriving with ds on the 30th, and the auctioneer will be coming for an assessment on the 1st. See you soon"
Madness to use deposits or take out loans when you have a debt to call in. What if you want to be sahm, or work very reduced hours, at end of ML?

Ironically, if she moved into a smaller home she could probably have a decent lifestyle, hair done, lunches etc - without it all being on credit.

Inertia · 28/10/2013 23:15

I really feel for you Shil ; i wouldn't know what to get angrier at - the barefaced lying and money-siphoning of the MIL, or the utter jellyfish spinelessness of your H. If he's fed up hearing about it, then he bloody well needs to sort it out !

Glad you have managed to agree to full mat leave and no mortgage - though i don't understand why the car cannot be sold rather than taking another loan ( which presumably would use your home as security ?). Think i would be sending the paperwork to MIL and asking her to stand as guarantor for the loan.

I would also be cancelling Christmas for everyone except your DS. No visits to MIL, no presents for anyone apart from DS, and i think i would be calling the other relatives personally to apologise and explain that you are too skint to buy for them or travel to see them.

CanucksoontobeinLondon · 29/10/2013 00:20

You're doing great Shil. You're in an extraordinarily difficult situation but you're making progress.

JoinYourPlayfuckers · 29/10/2013 00:51

I would cancel Christmas with your husband's family while they continue to fleece you.

Go in November if you think it will help.

Your husband is being a complete prick about this.

deepfriedsage · 29/10/2013 03:26

So a 39 year old bride was lifted over the threshold of a six bedroom house she has never left. My guess is your FIL was an enabler to a narcissist teacher.

Now your DH is taking over Dads role, including taking debts out to enable a mask Woman to continue a facade.

Have you changed your will op?

Your poor ds hasn't got a chance with his Dad. Well done for not returning to work. They want you at work to get the mortgage in three years time.

deepfriedsage · 29/10/2013 03:35

Op as long as you remain married to this Man you will be party to your sons current and future welfare being used to fund the lifestyle of a Woman who didn't even send him a proper birth present and who won't fund a visit to him.

All your MIL cares about is her status to people who don't matter, all the while her descendants will carry thestory of a selfish spendthrift down the generations.

catsmother · 29/10/2013 08:41

God OP, I'm pleased that you can take the full maternity leave you want - but what a price you're having to pay to do so, both literally and metaphorically.

So, this is now going to be funded with savings - which you'd planned to use towards a deposit for a bigger place. And, you say you'll have to be really frugal. Furthermore, if those savings aren't enough, you say your DH will take out another loan so you can delay your return to work. This suggests that potentially all of your savings are going to be used up to afford ML - and that potentially, if he takes out a loan, there will be another outgoing for you to service.

This is madness.

How long will it take you to replenish those savings once you return to work ? How long will it be before you can move somewhere larger ? Will you have gone stir crazy by then ? Maybe a year in a less than ideal property is bearable if you can see light at the end of the tunnel, but if the answer is you don't know, then there's a huge risk you will, as you say, become "bitter and twisted" if you and your family go without while your MIL remains rattling round a huge house without a care in the world towards repaying what she owes.

As others have said I can't begin to imagine - completely - how hard this must be for you. How you must be seething at the injustice of it all, and at the betrayal MIL has shown by reneging on her promise - and perhaps more than anything, the lack of loyalty your husband is showing towards you. I understand, of course I do, that you don't want your marriage to break down .... but on the other hand, what sort of marriage will you have if this continues and nothing's resolved ? What your H has suggested, (which is ridiculous when, for a start you own 2 classic cars which could be sold to raise some cash - why on earth can't they be sold ?!?) and is only a stop-gap "solution" to the immediate issue of maternity leave. It does NOT address the issue of MIL coming good on her agreement, and it pushes you further away from moving. That's a hell of a big thing to impose upon you. Has he actually discussed what happens NEXT ? ...... or is he hoping you'll be effectively "shut up" for the next few months and that by the time you return to work, at which point the household income will presumably increase, you'll have "forgotten" all about MIL ?

IF he had a concrete plan regarding getting MIL to pay up then maybe I'd "buy" what he's suggested. IF he'd said he was going to go up there and commandeer her antiques and art so this was sorted once and for all then okay, maybe I'd countenance borrowing some of the savings in the short term while those sales were arranged. And failing that, IF, he believed there was some extenuating circumstance which meant he couldn't enforce MIL's agreement right now, then I'd feel a lot happier if he explored all possible other avenues of raising cash first, and before he started talking about further loans - and the 2 cars are quite obviously the next thing to use if MIL can't/won't play ball at the moment ....

.... but that possibility doesn't even seem to have entered his head at all. The more I read the more I think that he's his mother's son alright. SHE doesn't want to sell her "precious" things. HE doesn't want to sell his "precious" things. SHE'D prefer to live on credit/loans rather than face up to her situation and utilise the assets she does actually have (equity, antiques). HE'D prefer to live on credit/loans (potentially) rather than face up to his situation and utilise the assets he does actually have (cars). SHE makes promises and doesn't honour them. HE also makes promises and doesn't honour them .... it's all very well him saying that YOU agreed to MIL's loan and that the current impasse is now between you and her, but YOU, as a couple must have talked about the loan, and YOU, as a couple must have agreed to do it on the terms originally suggested. Would you have agreed otherwise had you known that she'd be avoiding all talk of repayment over a year later ? - of course you bloody well wouldn't. I think it's disgraceful that he's lumping this on you now - he's more or less implying that if you don't like the current situation you only have yourself to blame !

It seems you now have little choice but to confront her yourself as your H refuses to do so. But I have no idea what you can do next if she still makes excuses ...... I don't know if you'd be able to take legal action to recover this for example, but even if you could, I'm sure that given everything you've already told us your H would be furious and any such action by yourself would spell the end of your marriage. I think he's washed his hands of this - he obviously won't object if his mother repays the money, but doesn't seem that bothered if she won't. I think in his head, he's already written off this "loan" - which makes a mockery of the whole thing. You certainly don't have anything to reproach yourself for as you undertook all this in good faith - but he has let you down big style. Of course, him applying some pressure to MIL may not have the desired effect either but he could at least try and chances are she may be more moved by her son's pleadings than yours. Him not even trying though must feel like a kick in the guts.

I'd like him to explain, totally clearly, no silly platitudes, what he intends to do NEXT if you appealing to MIL's better nature has no effect ? What does HE suggest then ? What will HE do if YOUR efforts come to nothing ? This was a joint agreement and he should also be doing all he can to resolve it. You know, it's even occurred to me whether or not he's gone behind your back and made a different sort of agreement with MIL entirely - in other words he's gifted her this money, told her not to bother repaying it or whatever - but is keeping up some sort of pretence about there being a loan to avoid you going apeshit. It just doesn't add up otherwise and I'm afraid I have to agree with the poster upthread who said he's being a prick. I know that sounds hard but right now he's pouring your hopes of moving down the drain and has no sensible or fair suggestions for sorting this out. He'd rather his wife and child lived in a too small property than risk "upsetting" his precious spoilt brat of a mother.

Do you really really think you can live with this forever more ? I should imagine that unless MIL pays up in the very near future, with heartfelt apologies for having been so selfish, that you'll soon get to a point where, even if she does eventually pay up some years down the line, that your marriage will have been irretrievably damaged anyway. And what if she doesn't ever repay the loan ? ..... how will you be able to live with the knowledge that your own husband was so utterly disloyal, caring only that his mother kept things and a property that was unquestionably vastly too large for a single person, while you're stuck in a small flat ?

OP - I wish you every success for attempting to get through to this selfish bag in November, but if you don't, and your husband still just, in effect, shrugs, what will you do next ? I don't know how anyone could live with that level of betrayal. If he was as concerned and as worried and upset as you are, it'd make all the difference - if he was prepared to bring pressure to bear, it would be different again. If he was 100% on your side, as he should be and unfortunately, his mother point blank refused to pay back - then at least you could move forward knowing that your husband had done all he could. Right now though, it seems like you're down £15K (plus interest) AND, are having to face up to the awful, gut wrenching realisation that you and your child are beneath his appallingly entitled mother in the pecking order. I'm just not sure any marriage could survive and prosper in those circumstances, you would never be able to trust him again or feel secure that he has your best interests at heart. I think even if you do succeed with MIL - and obviously I hope you do - that this whole business will have struck a body blow to your marriage .... because there is no justification for his attitude. He will have one hell of a lot to make up to you - and I don't really know how he can do that TBH. I'm very very sorry he's behaving so appallingly towards you.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 29/10/2013 08:46

I agree with what has been posted about the car and I would think carefully about confronting MIL.

Your DH has had decades of conditioning to accept MIL's behaviour and appease her. That's probably why he is arguing with you not her. I suggest you have a look at the Stately Homes threads to get an idea of how he might be trapped in childhood patterns. Susan Forward's Toxic Parents and/or Toxic Inlaws books might be useful too.

expatinscotland · 29/10/2013 09:05

Change your will. Get a relationship counsellor. Tell your DH if he doesn't come with you, you wil go on your own and do it.

deepfriedsage · 29/10/2013 09:11

I just want to add. I don't get the pit your wife before your Mother stuff, you are both adults. My thinking is you pit a child before an adult and your DH is not doing this, he puts a greedy, selfish spendthrift adult before a baby. In enabling him to put your Sons needs after an adult you become an enabler to this behavior too.

LTB.

deepfriedsage · 29/10/2013 09:12

put

DustBunnyFarmer · 29/10/2013 12:11

Catsmother's post is very thoughtfully written and thought-provoking. The money is not the problem, it is the 'symptom' that brings the underlying problem into sharp focus.

NettleTea · 29/10/2013 13:10

also it might be worth saying to an auctioneer that you need to raise £15K to repay the loan. So he doesnt leave until he has potentially £15K worth of stuff. If she starts saying 'not this item' then you look elsewhere until the amount has been reached with other stuff. Warn him that she will probably put on the histrionics. Also make sure that it is signed that the proceeds of the sale go directly to you, otherwise there is another wad of cash that you wont see

Lavenderhoney · 29/10/2013 13:27

No doubt you said to him, that you decided together and it was supposed to be repaid? What was his reply?

The " another weekend" ruined because you won't back down and forget about it. It seems your dh is punishing you for not sharing his thoughts about his mother and her entitlement by spoiling the weekend for you and your ds.

Do arguements with him normally end like this, or do you talk and talk until its resolved? Did he learn the spoiling treatment from his dm? How long before you give in because of the atmosphere and your ds? Does he ever apologise?

He is very wrong in telling you to sort it out. Before you go and before you book- I would telephone her and say your sole purpose of coming is to get your money. Otherwise what's the point? You can talk on the phone, you don't have to travel to listen. If she says she wants to talk, just say no, talk now, on the phone. She has got 4 weeks to get the money. Otherwise save your money and do something nice with your ds. Get refundable tickets and inform your dh.

Who is paying for bils wedding and her new outfit, hair do, nails?

I'm so sorry, the classic cars should be sold, after all, if things go well in a few years it could be replaced for your dh.

Its dreadful you are taking all your maternity, and having to be frugal, and your mil and dh are ok with that.

Its not about the money anymore though, is it? Its about how he thinks, and his priorities. Its always a shock, been through it myself and I'm afraid we are trundling inexorably towards a split.

Do what's best for you and your ds, get the will sorted, and get the flat valued, in case you want out. He sounds to me like moving and having a better life is ok, as long as its just talk, no action, and his dm is happy:(

HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 29/10/2013 13:33

We are in a similar situation OP. My PILS are being forced to sell their winter home and DH wanted to help them out. The difference in our case is that we looked at the numbers together, we discussed it at length, we both came to the conclusion we couldn't afford it without taking out a second mortgage, and we both agreed that it wasn't worth it.

At no point did his parents act like they were entitled to the proceeds of a second mortgage on our home, and at no point did DH tell me that I had to be the one to discuss things with them.

Your MIL is a real piece of work.

Catsmother says it all really.

FunnyRunner · 29/10/2013 14:48

Every time I read the 'I got my nails done' text I want to slap her.

OP would you consider letting your DH read this? He seems to be so in thrall to his mother that it might act like a dash of cold water in the face when he sees that most normal people are Shock at his mother's behaviour and his own.

123bucklemyshoe · 29/10/2013 15:51

this is a really difficult situation.
You are doing well & stick to your guns on a few things.
Do change your will. Do agree a payment schedule with your MiL that includes interest. Agree that if she missesa ppayment there will be a penalty. And get here to change her will so whatever is owing to you is covered. Get a solicitor to do this. Tell your husband you need boundaries around this so you & be can get on with your relationship. This looks like this is going togo on so you need long term solutions. I am afraid it doesnt look like you are getting your money back in the short term .
Dont take on her mortgage or lend money - family & money do not mix.
Tell her how you feel & how betrayed you feel. Tell your dh the same. You may love him & it doesn't stop him being a feckless twat when it comes to his family.

123bucklemyshoe · 29/10/2013 15:52

Sorry for typos - phone!

OOAOML · 29/10/2013 16:10

If you visit her why not drive home in the car that you and your husband own but has strangely been left at her house? And stop off at a classic car dealer on the way.

Lavenderhoney · 29/10/2013 16:40

OOAOML- that is a genius idea, and so simple!

Yes, op, just take the papers or get them off mil when you arrive as you need to get the car fully serviced for the winter or whatever:) she'll lose them if she has got them and you give her a heads up!

Don't forget your headscarf:) and get in contact with a few garages beforehand. She still owes you the money mind you, but this will help make your life better for now.

You can get a photo of it in a frame for dh.

pippop1 · 29/10/2013 17:25

Yes to the car idea, but make sure you are insured before you get there.

tobiasfunke · 29/10/2013 17:31

A lot of the problem I think is that because you have no parents that all the focus is skewed to his side of the family. How would your DH feel if it was his money and his DS's future that was being frittered away by his spendthrift MIL. I bet you he would be less laissez-faire about it then.