Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

Does your husband believe this so called mortgage advice?

I suggest you and your husband go visit a bank yourselves and discuss mortgages, so it is laid out clear that your MIL is actually lying.

You need to stop being polite now, or you will be in a huge financial mess in three years time.

The mortgage advice is bollocks. Of course it will affect your finances if you have another mortgage in your name.

She's trying to get you to take over ALL her debt isn't she!

I think you need to be more blunt with her, rather than waiting for her to join the dots that her not paying you back is what is making you poor, and that its her fault!

My god, she really is a piece of work. Letting you sell your jewellery and your DH his hierlooms?

No WAY should you take on her mortgage. If you do you can kiss goodbye to that bigger place for the next 30 years. Bloody hell, she is a parasite isn't she? What the hell is your DH thinking, too?!

You did say she has £200K equity in her house? Surely the answer is staring her in the face - as preciousbane says, sell house, move to a place costing less than £200K (should be possible anywhere outside Central London), pay of what she can of her debts, and henceforth live within her means. Doesn't have to involve you at all!

I honestly think you need to divorce your husband and move on.

He, his brother and his mum are financial feckless fuckwits. They dont know any better. You are going to end up funding them all at this rate.

The next time she bleats about it I would quite clearly ask her what she plans to do about it.

Ball squarely in her court. No wriggling. No making u out to be the meanie. Just clearly 'how do you plan to rectify the situation?'

I might be tempted to try this tactic. 'Our mortgage company tells us before they wud consider letting us remortgage your house, we would need to have substantially paid back our mortgage, to show it is affordable. Especially the 15k we lent u as it is recent borrowing. Therefore so we can show we are paying it back let's get some dates in the diary for when you are paying us and ill set it up with the mortagage payments. What dates suit?'

I honestly don't think it could be any plainer that she intends you to pay the new debt-funding mortgage for her if she wrote it in neon letters fifty feet high. Hence her not planning to roll the other 15k up in it. In her mind, that's been paid off already.

Where is the guarantee that all this money she has borrowed fleeced from you will ever get repaid ? What happens if you take on more debt, she dies and has left her money to the cats home ?

Hs she even been near a bank? Because bank managers don't really see people anymore. She would have spoken to a mortgage advisor or an account advisor surely? She isn't losing her mind, she is worried you have found yours.

And I think you know, op, that a mortgage advisor could not and wouldn't comment on the possibility and suitability of a massive mortgage to you to pay off her debt! Especially without you there, and no knowledge of your own financial situation. The bank won't loan her the money for a reason- she's too high a risk- and you already know she won't pay you! She might promise to leave it when she dies, but you need the money now, not in 40 years!

And of course, just because it could be done, doesn't mean it will be done! Just like it would be possible for us to buy the house next to my mil, it will never happen. Even if the bank manager came round himself:)

She has decided in her head that the money she and her late dh paid to educate your dh has been set off against the debt she owes to you two. Did she really never mention this before? That she begrudged the money spent as parents and expects it back? Or if not back, used as a tool forever to get her own way?

Have you asked your dh if she has ever mentioned that the cost of educating him and paying for his degree would have to be paid back one day? You may find it was loosely agreed that way for his university fees etc and he hasn't quite dared tell you.

Stop working out your family finances with her in mind or involved. Write off the 15k as you won't see that anytime soon. When she mentions it say your bank manager and financial advisor say you can't afford it and refuse to dicuss it.

Why don't you see how you can move to a bigger place? How impossible is it really? See someone and don't mention having to pay anything for her. Your dh could ask her what he would be left and ask for it now I suppose? Why would you have a painting on the wall when you could be in the garden? Get some copies made? Put them up instead.

Take your full maternity leave and don't sell your jewellery. Don't pay for her visits- no wonder she thinks you have money to burn! She's not the queen, let her put her hand in her pocket. You can get a national express bus from pretty much anywhere to London for a pound, so let her do that, because that's what she would be ok with YOU doing if you visited.

Sell that chest of drawers as well. Dont tell her, stop involving her in your money and financial decisions she thinks she has a say in how you spend it!!!

You can probably get a lovely one off eBay or freecycle if you look to replace it. That's why people give heirlooms, money for a rainy day and to make sure YOUR ds gets you for a bit longer all day. Don't forget to keep a note so your ds can pay it back one day!! Joke!

This is long but I see real trouble ahead if you have to change your life so your mil carries on like this. What hold does she have over you that she thinks you both will do it?

Don't sell your jewellery.

Get your DH and BIL (cuz it does involve him too) to camp outside her door if needed until she sits down and honestly talks.

She's done a good job of financially abusing you pair thus far, so even try going to see a bank advisor yourself, or a solicitor.

You are in a total bind, but that doesn't mean you have to stay there. I know family politics are strong, but you have no obligation to do these mad things for her and royally fuck up the rest of your marriage and PFB's life.

The wonderful Attila talks a lot on relationships threads about FOG - Fear Obligation and Guilt - and I really think that's a big part of what your DH is feeling now.

I seriously doubt that she saw a bank manager. Possibly one of these bank employees that try to sell people loans... and IME they are usually pushy 20-somethings that know bugger-all about bugger-all and are just after a commission.

She needs debt counselling and proper, independent financial advice and then she needs to take it. Until then I suggest that whenever the subject of money comes up, you change it. You're not getting your £15k so let her get to the end of her interest-only mortgage and then deal with the consequences. Make sure your DH is not caving behind your back. All this 'we paid for your education' sounds very manipulative.

Get your DH to go to the bank advisor with her, or maybe you and DH should go for advice yourself.

Also, I recommend showing this thread to your DH and talking it through with him.

Is there any paper trail to show that the 15K was a loan not a gift?

OP, what does your DH think is the solution? Since he doesn't want to nag his mother but does want to move.

You need to stop tip toeing around her!

Also, YOU are actually in control of when you go back to work, as only you can make that phonecall or write to your employers to make arrangements for your return to work - it is not as if your DH can do so on your behalf! Arrange to go back as you originally planned and put the responsibility of funding that on your DH, as he has got you into this mess. If he needs to sell the chest, so be it.

Repeat after me: 'I am not going to be the one who gives in!'

I think that one issue might be that she assumes that you and DH are richer than you are eg he is a young man with a professional job, working 'up in London', surely he must be doing welll? Again, many of the older generation just do not understand the issues facing young families.

Oh, and it might be relevant to tell her that if she was a teacher there is no way that she would be able to disappear at 3pm every day these days!

There is absolutely no way a financial advisor would have told her that a mortgage on her house could be taken out in your name with no effect on your borrowing power. I can't see how they would lend YOU the money when the collateral is not even yours or under your control.

Would she agree for you to visit a financial advisor together ? It is quite mad that she pours so much interest payment down the drain every month, would she be persuaded that she would see her GC so much more if she had more disposable cash?

Until the house is sold I can't really see how she can deal with all that debt.

Unfortunately the whole family seem to avoid responsibility by assuming that you and DH will be the backstop. Your BIL should not be presuming on you either .

The fact that she invokes guilt tripping re paying for his education demonstrates that there is some design and manipulation behind her reliance on your money. She did those things because he was her son and she was bringing him up! Very mean to now effectively emotionally blackmail him with it..

Did the auction houses indicate that the prices the paintings would fetch would amount to £15k? Irrespective of your MILs View of their worth, would they raise £15k?

I think the problem lies more with your DH than your MIL.

Your MIL is either deliberately not joining the dots in the conversations about your mat leave, or, as she appears not to have been involved in the finances over the years, thinks that perhaps you are exaggerating the situation. As per Branchingouts post she may think that your DH is earning loads of money.

In either case if you and DH could present a united front to her, perhaps along with BIL about repayment, then she wouldn't really have an option. ( Although perhaps BIL thinks you are folling in it too as you are able to extend loans to him). Utter madness for her to have valuable paintings lying around that could cover these costs. Oh and if they have gone down in value since she bought them, then they will probably go down further. I'm no art expert, but I believe once a style of painting is out of fashion it could decades before it enjoys a resurgence.

Is there one piece that would cover the £15k? If so I would focus your efforts on convincing DH that getting her to sell that is the right thing to do. Get your money back - don't mention her mortgage or you won't get a penny out of her, then refuse to be linked financially to her again, come out with something like "It caused such bad feeling last time, I'd hate us all to be in that position again."

Oh and stop paying for and organising her trips. Perhaps send her the links to the coach websites and tell her the route, but do not pay for it.

Dear god, she really is a manipulative theiving cowbag.

I would :

-tell her you have contacted your mortgage advisor. They will not even entertain the notion of you remortgaging (either for her house or yours) until the 15 k is paid off. Therefore there is no point even having a conversation about it until she has sold the paintings to pay the 15 k. ( The advisor could be the MSE mortgage calculator).

You need to get DH onside, and make him understand that his willingness to let his mother bleed you dry financially means that your son is going without.

• You also have to stop paying to visit her or for her to visit you. If she does visit, provide only basic value food. You are telling her how tight money is, but until it impacts on her she won't see it.

Op you are acting like a total mug.

Stop walking on egg shells with her and deal with this head on. She is manipulating you and you are LETTING her. Do not give in to her. Take action. I would be out if there to my mums ASAP until my dh stepped up and sorted his mother out.

You need to talk to your DH. In purely financial terms. Tell him
You need to go to a solicitor and have a loan document drawn up, with interest payments.
You need to have a second charge out on her house so that you have security for the debt and it will be repaid when she sells
You need to find out when she will finish paying off the £25k loan.

Then, in your mind, you need to write off the debt.
So then you need to work out with your DH how you economise. Do not sell anything or go back to work early if you don't want to. Find things that he cares about that you may have to cut down on. Sit down and put it in black and white. The loan is costing you £50 a month in interest, never mind the lost deposit for a house.
Then bring up space. Ds will get bigger. What can you (he) get rid of because the house is too crowded.

Don't keep on going on about the loan, bring it up once at the beginning of each conversation and then leave it.

But make it crystal clear to him there is no way you are taking on any more of her debt/finances.

Poster upthread have made a point that bears repeating. In her own mind, MIL has already wiped out this debt, because as far as she's concerned it is balanced by the money she and FIL spent on their son's upbringing. Therefore, all the commiserating about your financial problems is because she believes that your money problems are all your own fault- she doesn't actually agree that she owes you anything.

Any further 'loans', mortgage repayments will be met with the same response- she will find a way to justify never repaying you a penny.

Bottom line is whether your DH is prepared to write off the financial future of your family in order to fund his mother's wish to maintain a large house and an art collection on your money. The household finacial cutbacks need to start affecting DH too, btw- no room for luxuries like nights out, holidays, nice food if you are going to continue to treat MIL like she's Princess Margaret.

The charge on the house that Clean mentions is definitely worth investigating. Do not even give headspace to the idea that MIL will repay you from her will- firstly there may be no money left after debts, and secondly she doesn't believe she owes you so will quite possible leave it to somebody else.