Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

[ChasedByBees]

Somebody said earlier in the thread that she has stolen from a young family. I thought that was harsh, but if she's prepared to murmur commiserations while you're talking about selling jewellery and heirlooms while she owes you £15K, then actually they were right. She has no intention of paying you back.

I would actually cut contact until she pays you back. I think it 's time for the hints to stop and for you to get formal and assertive about this.

Could you raise with your DH what he plans to do if she never pays you back? Point out all the consequences - that she'd watch your child ho into daycare never seeing you during daylight, see you in a cramped flat selling anything of value before seeing it as something she's caused.

Does he realise that this could have a really toxic effect on your relationship? It's already started if you're rowing.

[expatinscotland]

'All I do know is that adding 15K to your UK average 100K mortgage repayments makes only a small difference to the size of your monthly repayment, so I really don't understand the level of anger the OP is experiencing.'

The MIL took £15k, has no intention of paying it back, wants an incredibly risky level of financial commitment from them and you don't understand her anger?

Seriously?

Someone has to pay that money back, with interest.

I understand bereavement, our child died last year, but it is not and is never an excuse to use people financially to such staggering sums when they cannot afford to give it and have no offered it.

[ChasedByBees]

Mini - the MIL made that choice of her own free will, presumably with no strings. She borrowed money promising to pay it back. If they were paying back student loans, it would be a manageable amount that they would have built into their lives. Paying back £15K that you didn't expect to have to pay causes massive difficulties that are hard to plan for and will result in them unable to get the home they could have got and having to return to work early. I think that's unforgivable.

[expatinscotland]

Mini is the MIL.

If they couldn't afford to pay for his education then it was their lookout to tell him that, not do it, etc. and he would need loans and such.

[perfectstorm]

How much are the repayments on 15k if you have added it to the mortgage? By my calculation on interest only over 10 years that works out at about £12 a week?

Are you really hard up?

Why on earth would they be paying it as interest only, when it was added to a repayment mortgage for what was intended to be a brief period of 3 months? I also very, very much doubt that their mortgage is only the UK average of £100k, given they are a dual income household based in central London and you wouldn't find a studio flat with that money there. It's a lot more likely to be at least double that, and when facing a drop from a professional salary to SMP of around £500 a week, yes an additional £25 a month could well throw careful pennypinching calculations wholly out of whack. How could it not? And yes, the OP's hard up - she's now facing a forced return to work instead of taking her full maternity leave!

I also think you are spectacularly missing the point, which is that they were asked to lend this money as a 3 month expedient while MIL sold some art. That was the agreement and those were the conditions when they very generously agreed to take on a 5 figure debt for a family member, at her request. 11 months later it is clear that MIL has no intention of selling that art, and has every intention of them shouldering her mortgage plus her additional £40k of debt on top of that original 15k "loan". And when it is hinted that she needs to repay that supposedly very short-term loan, which is now 8 months past due, she mentions that she had to return to work earlier herself (hint: so should you, and why should I care?) and that DH's job is down to his expensive education (hint: his earnings are hers to purloin, because she made them possible). And she's doing this in the full knowledge that they need a bigger place to live in future, which taking on her mortgage/adding 15k to their existing mortgage will derail.

As everyone knows, mortgage finance isn't only about affordability, anyway. Rents are often more than a bank will lend - it's about income multiples. How can they get the same amount of money for a new place when a 15k chunk is missing, let alone if they take on her MIL's debts plus mortgage, as she is insisting?

I don't think that situation is comparable to yours. Grief is indeed awful and can leave people in a tunnel, but tunnels don't usually involve quite careful planning for how other people can continue to fund you living beyond your means, as was your pattern before your bereavement. She isn't living in paralysed shock - she's discussing how she went to the bank to find out how she could get her hands on much, much more of their money!

[Phineyj]

I imagine the anger is because the OP agreed to do a kind thing for 3 months and a year later is having to kiss goodbye to £15k and has had it dawn on her the long term effect this and the MIL situation generally will have on her own little family. Maybe the MIL will feel a little better in a few years; maybe she won't. Maybe it will hurt worse to leave it longer to sell the things.

I think the FIL bears responsibility for this mess too. He may have died unexpectedly, but he must have been aware that he would be leaving his wife and children in a difficult situation financially if he died.

OP, having pondered this some more, I think a big row and lots of unpleasantness is inevitable. You may as well have it sooner rather than later (as when your MIL is pushing 80 it will feel a whole lot worse). But maybe not until you've settled back at work.

[perfectstorm]

expat - I agree.

[perfectstorm]

Minifingers are you seriously saying a child is responsible for their parent's financial decisions over their education? When they had no idea of their parents' financial situation at the time, and the choice was entirely their parents' to make? Because with all due respect, that is straightforwardly bonkers.

[perfectstorm]

Sorry - SMP of £500 a month! A week would be nice, though.

[Blu]

"The OP's DH has had a HUGE and completely unnecessary hand out from his parents," well yes, and that was a decision that the parents took. Did they give him the choice, state ed or private and if private we will make your years of early family life when you are new in your career and have a baby a financial misery?

Mini, when I had a baby, was on maternity leave, was paying a mortgage and trying to save, £12 pw or £48 pcm would have been very significant.

I do agree that MIL is still likely to be reeling with grief and disorientation, and that it might be crule to wrench her immediately from the family home or from her treasured posessions. In the longer term though life is going to be impssible if she tries to llive ike this, so beyond her means.

OP, is your DH loathe to sell the old home of his childhood? Where he lived with his Dad?

Nothing wrong with dealing with this with tact and empathy, but the financial facts are the financial facts and there is no point in adding a cascade of financial disasters to the family problems.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Well I've paid for my childrens education and intend to pay for them to go to university (if they so wish), then I'll help them out with deposits for their first house if they need (my parents did hte same for me and my siblings).

I do not expect my children to suffer unneccessary financial burden to keep me in a lifestyle I would like to be accustomed to at great cost to themselves.

Bringing up children is not a business transaction. I'll be delighted for my children to grow up and give back to society in their adult lives by becoming amazing people.

OP's MIL is expecting her son to live on beans on toast whilst both OP and he work themsleves ragged to keep MIL in a lifestyle she does not actually need, she does not need to live in a massive house mortgaged to the hilt with expensive works of art. She can't afford it.

[CupOCoffee]

Mini, the 15k on the mortgage could well make the difference between being able to afford to move or not. When i moved to bigger place a couple of years ago we ended up having to offer 4 grand more than our mortgage offer. It was either that or not move. We then had to see the bank to see if they would agree to it. It was seriously touch and go as to whether they would agree despite an extra 4k making hardly any difference a month. They look at what you earn and multiply it taking off any debts etc. It really can be that tight and its the reality for most people.

[cartoad]

I wonder how much she and FIL paid their parents back towards their schooling and university and general upbringing just at the point that they needed money to buy a bigger house for their new family?

Kinda betting that she didn't...

[Xenadog]

OP I have an older sister whom I don't speak to any more as she borrowed a substantial amount of money from myself and two other sisters a few years ago. She claimed she was going to sell her house and they repay us - never happened.

Then our father died and left us all some money. She promised us she would pay us back the money she owed us but once she got her paws on it that was it; she wouldn't answer the 'phone or be in when we tried to see her for our money. We have basically lost our cash but she has lost more - she now has no family around her and she has incurable leukaemia. Harsh as though this may sound she has driven us all away with her behaviour (there is MUCH more than just this incident BTW) and I expect she will die alone. But it was her choice to treat us like this.

Your MiL sounds like my sister: a thief.

I would show her your bills, the amount her debt is costing you and tell her enough is enough. She needs to know clearly that this situation cannot linger and she must pay you back. Otherwise I would consider suing her if at all possible. You are NOT the person causing this mess - she is. Your DH needs to step up to the mark too as whilst she is his mum he has helped her but his responsibility lies with you and your DC.

I would avoid lending money to anyone else again (family or otherwise) and if you do get the cash back make sure you do not feel any sense of guilt for it. She is the guilty party.

[BranchingOut]

Any update?

[thegreylady]

I can't believe she still has/needs a mortgage on a house she has been in for 35 years.Most mortgages used to be for a maximum of 30 years.
I am 69 and we have been mortgage free for quite a few years now.Out joint pensions are just a little more than your mil's and we manage to save on that. We have no debts! I would hate to owe my dc money-we gave them money towards houses etc.
Your mil needs a bit of a reality check.Let her get past the anniversary of her husband.s death and then try to persuade your dh to do some straight talking.I feel she has no intention of repaying you.

[shil0846]

Hopefully good news - my DH has arranged for a local auctioneer to go round and value some of my MIL's pieces and speak to her about them. I wasn't party to the conversation between them, so I dont know what was said (and I havent asked) but it sounds like a huge step in the right direction that she has agreed to this.

He's due to go round tomorrow, so I'll let you know what happens...

Mini - as for your point that the interest is £12 a week, the interest is compounded so it's more than that and is approx £740 for the first year, and will increase every year. So the answer to your question is: no, we can't afford that, particularly if I'm on maternity leave. However, it is more than simply paying the interest - the loan is affecting our ability to move home. I feel aggrieved that my MIL promised to pay us back, and in a set time frame, and we made the loan based on trust. However it seems she cares more about having objects in a room, than she does about her grandson and his well being.

[perfectstorm]

For the record, I think she's been incredibly lucky to have such a kind and supportive DIL. A pity no good deed goes unpunished, really.

I hope tomorrow has a positive outcome. (Will you go along with the remortgage once you have your £15k back, though? Slightly concerned that your husband may have used that as the carrot/stick to move things this far... which would be frying pan to fire with a vengeance.)

[ModeratelyObvious]

Glad your DH is getting involved.

[shil0846]

The valuer's visit didn't go quite as well as I'd hoped. My MIL has given him items worth £1,200 to sell (£1000 after commission has been deducted) - so it's a start, but there's still quite a way to go.

Most of her really valuable stuff is in her drawing room and study but she refused to let him in there. She said that she doesnt feel comfortable with a complete stranger knowing what she's got (which I can understand as she's living on her own for the 1st time).

From what she has told me, it seems like the time was spent with her giving the valuer a lecture on fine art. She very proudly related to me how she explained to him the different colours used for porcelain and what they symbolized, and how when he realized that she knew far more than him, he didnt say another word! Essentially, it sounds like the poor man couldn't get a word in edgeways.

She's let him take an umbrella stand and an ornament, which belonged to an old relation and which she says she has never liked and wont miss.

I'm probably ungrateful, as at least she's now made a start and has shown an intention to pay us back. However it was the expensive items in her drawing room that she told us she was going to sell as the way to pay off our loan to her. So I'm disappointed that she wouldn't let the valuer even take a look at them. It's also going to be quite a long process if she pays back £1k every 11 months.

[EldritchCleavage]

I think DH should tell her he wants to take those items away to be valued, and press for it to happen. MIL could of course go along. Don't let this gesture of selling small things she doesn't like anyway satisfy you to the point where the impetus for recouping the loan is lost (which may be what MIL is hoping for).

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

So she agreed to the auctioneer, wouldn't let the man do his work and fobbed him off with a few pieces that she never liked anyway? This is not some poor old biddy disorientated by grief and I don't think it shows an intention to pay anything back.

[ModeratelyObvious]

He's an auctioneer, this is his job. She let him in the house but not into various rooms?

Hmm.

Surely the paintings could have been brought out by your DH if necessary?

[ModeratelyObvious]

She owes you £15k.

You are struggling in a small flat.

She has a drawing room.

You aren't the ungrateful one here!

[stowsettler]

Hells bells OP, this is not a start. It's a sap to you to shut you up. Have only skim-read the thread but frankly it still doesn't seem to me that anything has changed.