Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

The paintings could have been sold at any time CupOCoffee to offset some of the debts they racked up while the FIL was alive. There doesn't appear to be any savings so the artwork sounds as though it was an investment. Her reaction when the valuation came wasn't 'oh your father was so fond of them' it was 'they're not offering enough for me to sell'. Less a case of sentimentality and more wrong priorities.

[EldritchCleavage]

Never give her any money again. You won't get it back, it will corrode your relationship with her and stop you doing things you need to do in your life. If she gets desperate, she will sell her house and the paintings.

People who think they are poor because they haven't got cash money but do have assets are very annoying. The definition of poor is not 'I can't afford the lifestyle I want and still keep my four bedroom house'.

[JohnSnowsTie]

She does sound quite disingenuous to me - making the right noises re "I'm so sorry I'm ruining everything" but clearly anticipating the usual bail outs.

Sorry I have read the thread but I can't remember where you said she was living - could she rent a room or two out to lodgers to make some cash? I know of a very similar IL situation where the DS has given the parents an ultimatum (i.e. he's willing to continue helping them out, but only if they meet him halfway) and this is one of the suggested ways of them making some of their own money.

[HansieMom]

Yeah, she wanted to buy a pram and push chair but she would have charged them, and you would have paid for it anyway. The credit card bill would just have been 15.5K instead of 15K.

[tb]

Seems rather strange that they didn't have mortgage protection insurance that paid off the existing mortgage when the first person on the mortgage died. It used to be mandatory for all mortgages whether repayment or endowment/interest-only.

Unless, horrible thought, she's blown the insurance payout as well as the £15k.

[lalalonglegs]

That's true tb. Assuming the mortgage is 25 years old, they would have taken it out in the early 90s and it's a pound to a penny there was an endowment policy connected to it. Find out what the status is with that. Quite possibly, they redeemed it years ago or they may have just stopped paying into it.

[starfishmummy]

So what is the mil actually living on now? She and her late husband had huge debts so presumably nothing put away for living expenses. Does she still work or ostensibly she running up more debt expecting that someone will be along to bail her out?
She needs to stand on her own financial feet.

[perfectstorm]

Normally I organize (and pay for) visits as she keeps lamenting that she can't afford to come to London to visit us.

Very devoted of her. She gets a nice trip to London paid for by you, when you're struggling, she knows it, and she's had her hand out for huge sums now and in the future.

I'm sure she does show everyone the photos. My mother's friends all compete to show off about their gc. It's a status thing, though many are of course also genuinely devoted. But nothing you've said to date indicates anything but utter selfishness.

[lavenderhoney]

Oh, yes, mortgage insurance.. What's happened to that money / endowment - was it cashed in? It was supposed to pay the mortgage debt!

I don't see why you are paying for her trips, either. It sounds as though she doesn't even arrive with a present for your ds, or flowers for you. She must have some money or is she running up credit? I hope you have a joint account and its all accounted for. And your dh can't take out money to pay off her credit. He does realise you are saving for you and ds, not his mum?

It seems you have been led up the garden path with the free loan of 15k. She doesn't plan to pay it back, and I agree with another poster- she isn't concerned about the sentimental value.

Your dh is going to have to tell her, but if you do, there is less chance of getting your cash. Perhaps tell her if she wants you to consisder remortgaging your place to pay for hers, you need your money. Then when you have it, say you can't afford it and she will have to downsize.

It is a rather grim way of going about it, but being upfront and honest wont work IMO. You won't see a penny.

[Bogeyface]

Unless the cashed in endowment paid for the art in the form of an investment, in which case that is even more reason for her to sell it!

[BranchingOut]

Why not draft a letter and say to your DH that you are thinking that you should jointly send it to MIL?

Seeing it in black and white might focus his mind.

Stop thinking about 15k but think about it as the total amount you will pay off including the compound interest. That is the truth of what you will pay.

Also, don't say to her now that you won't help her with the mortgage - if she thinks you are going to do that then it might be leverage to help get back the loan amount.

Sorry, but she sounds appalling. :(

[NeedlesCuties]

Are the paintings fakes?

Sounds like she's hiding something, and is trying to stay quiet for her own life, with no regard for the practicalities of anyone else's.

[shil0846]

My MIL has a pretty good pension - £1,700 a month after tax. She lives on that and has cut up her credit card. However she's paying nearly £800 a month in repayment of another £25k loan, plus my FIL had another debt of over £15k and she's repaying that in installments. Then she has insurance premium, mortgage interest plus ordinary bills and living expenses. She says it doesn't leave her with very much (and I believe her).

I don't think they have mortgage insurance as they remortgaged about 5 years ago, however I'm going to check. Fingers crossed! There is about £200k equity in her house, so she could downsize if she wished.

I have absolutely no idea how they came to be so badly in debt. I always thought they were comfortably off. I know my FIL lost a lot of his pension when his pension company went down, and my FIL's hobby was trying Michelin star restaurants, but even so that doesn't equate to debts on this scale. They also inherited about £30k a couple of years ago, but all that seems to have gone too. I'm guessing it must be from the works of art, although they haven't bought any in the last 10 years. My DH was also really shocked to find out.

[BranchingOut]

If they were young people who had been living and spending like this how would you feel?

Just trying to test your feelings.

Your MIL and her spouse had a unique opportunity open to the couples of their generation to become rich through the rise in the value of property - they blew it. Not only did they blow it, but MIL is actually trying to damage your own financial well being to mop up her mess.

You need to get tough here.

[perfectstorm]

I have absolutely no idea how they came to be so badly in debt. I always thought they were comfortably off.

TBH, I think the answer to the first question is the second sentence. Champagne lifestyle on beer income, basically.

She could reduce her insurance premium by selling the art, though! (And as you effectively have a lien on it I hope she has it properly insured, too. If it were pinched then you'd be in an even worse position.) And if she can't afford to live, then surely downsizing so she had no mortgage to pay/comparatively tiny household expenses would improve her position enormously, and overnight? There aren't that many nice 2 bed places 200 miles from London that cost more than £200k - Cornwall, West Wales and Lancaster/Cumbria aren't generally white-hot property regions. She'd then be able to sell some of the art to repay you and the debts and be left with almost all her pension and a much calmer, happier life. Win all round, I would have thought. It's just the change that would be upsetting - but not as upsetting as bankruptcy. I honestly don't see how she can make those figures work, tbh. Her pension shrinks to what, £800 a month after repayments are deducted? And then she has to pay insurance costs and the upkeep/utilities/council tax and mortgage on a large house out of that, before all normal living costs? She's still living way beyond her means, isn't she. And sadly, she's expecting you to sub that.

[cartoad]

Next time you and dh see her, could you sit her down and make her do a full financial breakdown for you, there are some good ones on the moneysavingexpert site and others out there too I'm sure.

Then you'll be able to see exactly where all her money is going, check if there is still an endowment that she is paying or not - and what's going to pay the mortgage back in 3 years, what she owes to other people, what she owes to you, what she deems normal everyday shopping (but is maybe what others would deem luxurious - or maybe not, but you'll never know without sorting it all out), what other bills she is paying, whether or not she should change her electricity supplier or gas or insurance etc because she's just renewing everything and paying an arm and a leg for it, all the standard moneysaving stuff that can make loads of difference.

It's not going to be nice for her - but tough, she isn't being nice to you by not repaying your £15K.

Hopefully if you manage to sort some of her stuff out and maybe make a few hundred in savings by transferring things like insurance and gas then that will be money that can come straight to you.

Regarding the art - do you know where she/fil bought it from? were they sold it as an investment or just because they liked it and hoped it would be worth something? Some galleries will buy back art at the price they sold it - usually on the expectation that prices go up so it is a winner for them. But if her art has gone down in value then maybe it is worth investigating. Or seeing if the person who sold it to them has gone bust or been done for dodgy art dealing or whatever. Might help her to realise that the collection is not worth what it was - if it ever was in reality.

When you had the art valued, did they say why they thought the value was so different from your MIL's expectations and what she paid for them? Is it just market fluctuation and they are currently out of fashion so going cheap? Or were they done to start with (I can remember going on cruises where there would always be art sales with the staff selling 'expensive original' art that always seemed to be way over priced for what it was but people bought it because they were on holiday and got carried away and they had very good sales people). If you don't sell it now then will the price in the near to mid term go down even further? Was it a case of her thinking she'd just have to sell one or two pictures to pay you back and now she'd have to sell three or four or was it always going to be half a big collection and now selling all of it won't even cover your £15K? Have you had a look on ebay or american or other auction sites to see what sort of price these pictures go for in different places - either to reinforce what you are telling her about the pictures, or spot another way to raise money from them.

And agree with others that if she thinks she will be doing childcare so you can go back to work and will be paying you back that way, definitely stamp that out from the beginning!

Sorry, lots of questions as I'm nosy but I'm still struggling to see how she can be so convinced that she has art that is worth so much. What sort of pictures are they? Has she had anybody value it recently - or ever - and would they be prepared to put their money where their mouth is?

Maybe you should make her take the pictures off the walls and wrap them up ready to go, to make her realise that the time has come that things have to change, she has to at least start to pay you your money back and she can't keep pretending that things can just carry on as they were...

[campion]

Do as talkativejim suggests.This is not going to end well as your DH seems to think he is married to his mother, not you.

She has obviously made a career of spending other people's money, currently yours.You've got to get tough, ignore the tears and put her straight (along with your DH).

You will eventually feel very resentful-maybe towards both of them-if you don't resolve this.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I think the most helpful thing you could do for your MIL quite honestly is to get her in front of a debt counsellor such as CAB, a financial advisor or similar. She's in the soup, your DH is worried, and I think someone 'neutral' has to lay it all out for her & come up with some ideas how she can make her finances manageable. She may be gambling that she hasn't long left on the earth, others will give her money and her debts will die with her, I don't know. It'll be a battle if she's been used to a particular (unsustainable) lifestyle and it's going to be tough for her to downsize or sell things, but there's no point your DH providing more sand for her to stick her head in. Far more constructive and loving, I'd have thought, to tackle the root problem.

[LadyLapsang]

If she is very elderly - mid / late 80s on (doesn't sound like she is) she could consider some kind of equity release if you cannot afford to give / loan her money. Personally I would not encourage someone to do this and I would only loan money to family that I was prepared not to see again or, with large sums that I could afford to loan long-term, if there were transparency and a legal agreement in place and agreement from anyone else that would be likely to inherit (siblings etc.)

I can totally understand her not wanting to sell her paintings or downsize, my MIL on her own lives in a bigger home than all of us - that's life for many families. It's much harder to give up something you have had. Nevertheless, she is an adult and she needs to take responsibility for her own decisions. I agree with Cogito, she could do with some expert debt counselling.

[shil0846]

My MIL is 69 so I don't think an equity release is quite right for her, as it would limit her ability to downsize in the future. I completely sympathize with her not wanting to leave her home as she's lived there for over 35 years. However it just doesn't seem to occur to her that what she's proposing is a big ask. We could foreseeably be tied to this mortgage for the next 20 years.

Part of the problem is that we arranged for her to go and see her bank manager to ask if there was any way she could consolidate her debts / re-mortgage herself. She says he came up with the idea of us taking out a 2nd mortgage for her, and rolling all her debts up in that mortgage. She didn't mention our £15k when she was talking about the figures and when I mentioned it she said she "supposed" that could go in too.

Apparently the bank manager told her it wouldn't effect our ability to buy a bigger place and to increase our own mortgage. I don't see how that could be right, but that's apparently what he said. She therefore talks about it as though it is just a minor accounting arrangement, and brings up the fact she paid for my DH's school fees and paid for him through university and his professional qualifications (which to be fair she did so he had no student debts like most of us).

Her works of art were valued for insurance purposes by a valuer from a London auction house. I don't think she understands that insurance valuations are higher than resale prices. She is also looking at the price she paid and inflation and believes they will have gone up by that amount. I told her how much the auction house I contacted had valued a piece of furniture at and she said she wanted 20 x that amount!

I raised the loan again with her today, but she acts like it's my problem and she has no control over it. I told her I was going to have to start selling the few items of jewelry Ive got to try to fund my maternity leave, and she commiserated with me. I told her I had to as I was desperate. But there was no suggestion from her that she should sell anything or any promise to repay. She then suggested that my DH sells a chest of drawers that his great uncle left him, and which is stored at her house.

She then interrupted the discussion with a long story which ended with her hinting that she'd like another grandchild! I told her bluntly that we couldnt afford another and that we're struggling as it is. She then just changed the subject. I'm wondering if the shock of her husband's death has done something to her mind. I'm not a confrontational person and am just baffled by how to deal with this without causing a massive row.

[Bogeyface]

Apparently the bank manager told her it wouldn't effect our ability to buy a bigger place and to increase our own mortgage. I don't see how that could be right, but that's apparently what he said.

He did not say that, no bank manager would say that. She may have heard that (or invented that) because she needs it to be true so that you do what she wants you to do, but it isnt true.

You have been hinting. Forget it, that ship has sailed. I am afraid that you need to overt in your request that she sorts this out. At the moment she still has a reason to not pay you "Oh it is sad but at least DIL can sell her jewelry" so she can safely ignore the money she owes you.

You need to go in (with your DH backing you up) with "Right, we need this money back by X date. You agreed to sell the paintings to fund it, so I will contact the auctioneers and get them in to the next sale". And mean it, do not be swayed by tears, tantrums etc.

[JoinYourPlayfellows]

Her refusal to downsize means that her own child and his family are stick in a tiny flat!

Of course she paid for her son's education, that's what parents do.

That doesn't entitle them to have their children mortgage themselves to the hilt so they can live in a big house and keep an expensive art collection.

Stop coming up with "solutions" like selling your own jewellery.

This is a greedy, thieving woman. She would see you all homeless before she agreed to put herself to the slightest inconvenience.

It's pretty shocking that anyone could treat their own child as badly as this. She is not a good person. She is a selfish, nasty person.

Stop dealing with her as though she is decent. She probably hasn't got a decent bone in her body.

[perfectstorm]

What Bogeyface said. Every word.

And I don't think for one moment that her mind has been affected. She's lived on other people's money for quite some time from the sounds of it and is very happy to do so. As for raising her paying for her child's education - my God, that is what parents do if they can afford it! To use that as justification for spending your money (implication: it's my money anyway, as he'd not have the earning capacity if I hadn't paid for his education...) is quite extraordinary. She sounds worse and worse, to be totally honest. She has no intention of repaying you. And every intention of continuing to exploit you.

[Bogeyface]

Joinyour makes a very good point. You are dealing with her in a way that you would respond to because you are good decent person. She is either a) a selfish grasping woman with no care for anyone but herself or b) mentally ill and/or deluded. Either way, expecting her to respond in a way you understand is a non starter, she wont.

[JoinYourPlayfellows]

perfect is right - she is EXPLOITING you.

You are a young family and she has willingly added £15,000 to your mortgage and plans to force you to take out another mortgage so that she can continue to live in her big house that she can't afford.

Your options for moving to a bigger property, for having more children, for living YOUR lives are being restricted and hampered because she is there like a bloodsucking leech taking whatever she can of your family assets.

She's only 69! You could have 30 more years of this before you get to start your own lives free of her taking everything you have for her own.

You need to put an end to this now.

In your position I would not have a single thing to do with her until she started paying back the money she owed.

And under no circumstances would I take on her mortgage.

Based on experience, what makes you think she'd pay the mortgage?

Once all her debt was in your name, why on earth do you imagine she'd pay it? Legally you would both be totally fucked.