Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: thread 26

[CharlotteCollinsismovingon]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

noregrets if that is what you want, you should do it. i don't see how he cAn have rights over the house without paying the mortgage! not that i am doubting you, just that the law is an ass.
but especially if you can move out and put the house on the market as a result.

If he does not fill in Form E when asked by the court he will be in contempt. Advising me to go this route was one of the many good things my sol did. It lays down a timetable for both of you. I'd be v happy to go into this at length by PM, if you'd like?

If he is not usually resident ie he is living and sleeping elsewhere he has the right to access to the property by arrangement and at "reasonable times"...not all the time and whenever he feels like it......same as for landlords.

mink the law is indeed an ass. He has as much right as me, despite not paying a penny towards it.

silvery thanks for your PM. There are so many that say to avoid court at all costs... but when you're dealing with someone like this, a timetable that he can't run away from would be so so helpful.

fool exactly the way I see it! But sadly seems to be no real way of enforcing it in law. The only potential tool is an occupation order, but apparently he might not have been 'bad enough' physically to get one, as they're seen as draconian.

It seems so ridiculous to have this big house, potentially with no-one living in it. But I can't wait to finally get the feeling of being separated, and safe.

being safe and feeling safe are priceless!

I have just had my first full weekend with the DCs since moving out (a month ago tomorrow)! There were fairly good reasons for that, but partly it's because currently FW is deciding contact and I am saying "OK" - or putting up a small fight and then saying "OK". I feel like if I have them for more than 50% of the time and I have no job to work around whereas he does, then it has to be like that. Have a thread about it.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that it has been a lovely lovely weekend. We went to see fireworks last night and the DCs had a great time: they loved it. Then today was church and I was teaching Sunday School so they all decided to come in my class (older two were too old, really!) and that went brilliantly, too. If I were still with FW, it would all have been so different. I feel a new woman!

Saw FW's mum and dad the other day and MIL said the divorce had come as a shock. I know some people go into separation as a last-ditch attempt to hold a marriage together, but I have never had that in mind and surely there ought to be some fear that the marriage is now over?!

Anyway, pff. Their problem. I am going to marvel some more about just how well this weekend has gone not going to think about it.

a thread

Charlotte, read your thread, but will answer over here if you don't mind. Can't be doing with the dad brigade saying how your abusive ex may have gone away and changed. Has he fuck. What he has realised is that the mat has been withdrawn from under his feet, and he can't carry on having every thing his own way, so hfesse has changed course to a new plan which hmm, let me see, involves him having everything his own way, in a different context.

The difficulty is that you need to separate your relationship with him from that of dcs. For dcs, contact is good, though youngest is struggling. I think there are a couple of points

Consistency. He can't give you a list of dates he can't do. You need dates on a schedule he can reliably do. DC need commitment to whatever contact is agreed. I would be very surprised if 50-50 comes around, but you do not have to agree that in mediation, anyway. You can agree a schedule he can do (suggest EOW and a midweek night, which still gives him flexibility for his job, whilst consistency for dc), and monitor for six months, you can schedule another mediation to review arrangements etc.

Additional dates to make up for what he misses are a no-no. DC have activities, friends etc, which need to be arranged, also dc need consistency for wellbeing and security. He should commit to schedule, if he cannot make it, he does not mess everyone around, he sees dc when he is next due to see them. You cannot arrange your life around his work commitments, nor should dc.

Your 3 year old. If she is getting distressed, would argue for reduced contact till she is older. Again, the point that you review in six months. It is better long term for her to have a secure relationship with her father, than x amount of hours per week.

For mediation, prepare, prepare, prepare. Know what you want, know where you are prepared to compromise. Have it written down. Know what you will not accept. Do not get deflected on anything about the marriage breakdown, emotional blackmail, or anything. Only respond to things about dc and what you are there to discuss.

Charlotte great to read you had a good weekend I take every small bit of happiness as a postive these days, i think it makes things matter more especially the little things. In has made good points on your other thread. Given the problems I face I think I would be the wrong person to offer advice. I just totally agree with in and how others who don't understand the situation view it.
The professional advice I have been given is in some ways great but for a totally different set of circustances when maintaing a relationship is important. I think again In is right regarding the younger DC and you are spot on that if you can avoid court it really would be a blessing. The thing is because you have amde such a brave step and have to hold strong because of the circumstances, a court views it as obstructive as I feared and has come true. I haven't done mediation but the advice on prep sounds good. I am starting with a blank sheet of paper as in some ways anything is possible but more scary everything is possible and the uncertainty is scary to me as an adult so my DS must feel it more.
The deflecting point in makes is just so true and a real FW trick. This is when I lose focus which is of course the point of it but I think having that list is really good to bring you back.
You are doing so well. If the contact schedule can be put in place you would feel so much better but DC would too, then I think you can really plan things and feel like you are moving on. I feel like I can plan nothing as nothing will or can be final for a long time yet.
Love to all of you, sorry my last post barged in, felt panic.

Need to talk a little,
I've got a place to go to, and today I have to put the deposit down. P behaviour has been faultless. asking to spend time with his son, and being how a person should be. He's even sent his mom away (she's lived with us for about 7 ish years) of course I have to do all the stuff she does, that supposed to be his jobs around the house. He can't do it as he is working all the time.

I'm just confused. As this week my son has been unwell, and I have been very glad of the help he has given me. I don't know if could cope with my son on my own, when he is poorly.

I'm just confused.
Evil

Evilwater is he acting like this because you have laid down the law?
I am leaving in 8 weeks and FW has the sun shining straight from the place sun should not go. Never before have I seen so much washing done, so many beds made and so much dishwasher cleaning.
I have to keep reminding myself that this is not what he is like. This is not how he behaves.
Of course you could cope. The hardest thing to cope with is a FW emotional drama, the rest of life is actually fairly devoid of drama generally IMO

Evil, they can switch just like that, they will do what suits them, it is not genuine. I would put money on it, as soon as you set your foot down and start walking out the door, he will not be Mr Nice anymore. You will see the real him.
If I am wrong, he will respect that you have not been happy, that you need to move out for your wellbeing, and that you would like to effectively co-parent (and if you wish, work on your relationship from a distance).

better, unfortunately I learnt the point about deflection even in a legal setting the hard way. Ditto the point about them switching as suits. Hope you are doing okay

Might be time for a reminder that there is more to changing than being nice for a while!!

Assessment of change: Bancroft And Silverman 2002

Assessment of change in an abusive partner as a parent should draw on multiple sources of information (not just self-report), and include attention to the following issues at a minimum:
Has he made full disclosure of his history of physical and psychological abuse? A perpetrator must overcome denial and minimization in order to confront his abusive behaviour meaningfully. It is common for abusers to claim to have changed while simultaneously denying most of the history of abuse, and a sceptical view should be taken of such assertions.
Has he recognized that abusive behaviour is unacceptable? We find that some perpetrators who claim to have changed continue to justify their past violent or abusive behavior, usually through blaming the victim, thereby leaving an opening for using such justifications for future abuse. One indication of an abuser who may be making serious progress is his unqualified statements that his behaviour was wrong.
Has he recognized that abusive behaviour is a choice? Some perpetrators may acknowledge that abuse is wrong but make the excuse that they lost control, were intoxicated, or were in emotional distress. Acceptance of full responsibility is indispensable for change (Adams et al., 1992), and needs to include recognition that abuse is intentional and instrumental (Pence & Paymar, 1993).
Does he show empathy for the effects of his actions on his partner and children? As evidence of change, a perpetrator should be able to identify in detail the destructive impact his abuse has had (Pence & Paymar, 1993) and demonstrate that he feels empathy for his victims (Mathews, 1995; Edleson & Tolman, 1992), without shifting attention back to his own emotional injuries, grievances, or excuses.
Can he identify what his pattern of controlling behaviours and entitled attitudes has been? In order to change, a perpetrator has to see that his violence grows out of a surrounding context of abusive behaviours and attitudes (Pence & Paymar, 1993), and be able to name the specific forms of abuse he has relied on (Edleson & Tolman, 1992) and the entitled beliefs that have driven those behaviours.
Has he replaced abuse with respectful behaviours and attitudes? A changing abuser responds respectfully to his (ex-)partner’s grievances, meets his responsibilities, and stops focusing exclusively on his own needs. He develops non-abusive attitudes, including accepting his (ex-)partner’s right to be angry (Bancroft, 2002) and re-evaluating his distortedly negative view of her as a person. Attitudinal changes are important predictors of behavioural improvement in abusers (Gondolf, 2000).
Is he willing to make amends in a meaningful way? We have observed that abusers who are making genuine change develop a sense of long-term indebtedness towards their victims. This sense includes feeling responsible to lay their own grievances aside because of the extent of injury that the abuse has caused.
Does he accept the consequences of his actions? Our clients who make substantial progress come to recognize that abusive behaviour rightly carries consequences with it, which may include the woman’s decision to end the relationship or the placement of restrictions on the abuser’s access to his children. On the other hand, continued anger or externalizing of responsibility regarding such consequences tends to portend a return to abusive behaviour.

Change requires that the person needs to realise they need to change...and do the work

love Fool

answers to above: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, and no.

Last night FW said to me 'I can change' then 20 minutes of me (stupidly) trying to get it into his (THICK) head he said "I don't see what the problem is, you've suddenly decided to break up with me and I thought everything was fine" SO WHY DO YOU SAY YOU CAN CHANGE?? (on no level did I think he could change, don't worry, I am so far past that)

Of course life is fine as long as I
a: agree with everything you say
b: don't speak my mind
c: hang my personality at the door like a coat

then yes, everything really is 'fine'.
Last night I heard all about my friends giving hi "bad vibes", me thinking there is something better out there when there isn't (apparently I can't do better than him).
You know what, I would rather be on my own till the day I pass away than still be here, hating him and eventually hating myself for continuing to 'try' at this relationship.

It is true, better to be paddling your own canoe, in the direction and in the company you choose than stuck gong the wrong way against the current with bad company!

Charlotte Hurray for having a lovely weekend with your DCs, good to hear some positivity from the other side!

Tweedle Thank you for posting the list of lines that he came out with when you decided to stand your ground. So helpful as although I haven't yet had that chat I can already hear many of them coming out of his mouth. Somehow as soon as he says things like that I start to doubt my own mind so it is good to be pre-prepared for what might be coming. Well done for being brave and standing your ground.

Evil I can empathise. You just have to remember that if this is what he was always like then you would have never wanted to leave in the first place. Of course it's wonderful to have support for a sick dc, but surely this is just what any decent person would do, and you could find support from someone else who doesn't also happen to make you feel awful as a side-effect. Hope DC is feeling better.

I have been feeling a bit torn too as now I have made up my mind to leave (although not acted on it) he has started being so lovely. But I have realised that this is probably simply because I have stopped any attempt at sticking up for myself. I just let everything slide and do what he wants for an easy ride because I know it won't be for long, and there's no point trying to 'work on' anything. So no wonder he is being lovely because he is getting his own way.

Have 2 job interviews this week, eeek!

Also I am struggling with not feeling like a total bitch for planning to leave behind his back.. Just want to get a job before I go so I have some security but feel like I'm being so sneaky

Charlotte hurrah for feeling like a new woman! Agree with absolutely everything quietcoach said. The contact should be for the DCs, not for him to be able to 'get' his 50%. And they need consistency. He wants to have his cake and eat it. Is your solicitor involved in agreeing the contact yet? Maybe the suggestion of getting solicitors involved to iron out what's reasonable might make him wake up a little? But overall, yes, EOW & one weeknight is reasonable. My FW sees DS2 every Saturday because he doesn't have overnights yet, and doesn't see him midweek any more (his own choice).

Good Luck!!!

Don't feel like a bitch.

Just keep asking yourself these things (I have been doing this for 18months before deciding to leave)
1: is he like this normally?
2: is he doing these things for me or because something has happened which makes him feel he HAS to do them to make happy and to shut me up
3: would he NORMALLY do these things if I just asked him nicely (in the case of my FW he would moan about HOW I asked him, WHEN I asked him and the tone I used to ask him in. therefor DEFLECTING the actual thing I said and taking no ownership.
This is why when he made the bed yesterday morning I only hated him more. WHY? (a rational person in a normal relationship would ask) because the torrent of abuse I would have received if I had asked him to do that because it made me happy when he did would make it not worth while.

I looked at my new home today. Met up with the friend who is renting to me.. Kids playing happily in the lounge. I feel so close to being free. January the 14th seems close and far at the same time. I slept on the sofa bed last night in the lounge. He stomped around the house until 2am. MEH!

tweedle that's a good checklist for when you're being hoovered back in!

I lined up places to view today... and informed FWXH that I was moving out, so the house would be empty. He finally cottoned onto the fact that he would therefore not be able to use facilities anyway, as they'd all be switched off. Cue lots of shouting at my patheticness.

But then he phoned back to say he's giving me the keys back, so he won't be coming in the house any more. So I can stay! I'm cautiously over the moon, although won't quite believe it until I get the keys on Wednesday. First job then will be to change all the locks.

evil, tweedle I think the other thing you have to ask yourselves is, if he can do all these things now, then why could he not have done them before? There was nothing stopping him before so clearly he chose to behave like that.

charlotte sage advice as ever from quiet You cannot arrange your life around his work commitments, nor should dc. no, absolutely not. it tells the dcs they are not as important as daddy or daddy's job. you are not as important as daddy or daddy's job and yet again puts him right back at the top of the tree of entitlement. So should such things ever come up in mediation, then that is how to frame them 'it is good for the dcs to have consistency' 'it is not good for the dcs to feel they have to fit round his work' etc. etc. because that is it, bottom line for you, bottom line for the dcs and most importantly the supposed bottom line for any mediation/legal process the best interests of the dc and therefore very difficult for even a FW to argue against as long as it is always framed in those terms.

noregrets brilliant sounds like a result either way

sorry not to comment on all the other posts. flying visit.

and all round.

seriously can I do 10 weeks here?
for a guy who initially said he's wasn't bothered about us breaking up and that he wasn't going to go on about it he is spending a lot of his time doing just that.
I am not being swayed, it is putting my defences higher but it is making me feel like this is going to be one huge, long, boring fight about how I am breaking up a family. How I am upsetting the kids, I am selfish, if I cared about him I would listen to him.
the irony is, I have spend 4 years trying to get him to listen to me and I JUST CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE
does he seriously think I am a prize to be won? I AM NOT!
I am a person to be nurtured and cared for.
Spent all day with the kids and they have been super gorgeous. As soon as he walked in the house they became whingey and uptight. I am sure they are picking up on it they are not stupid.
10 weeks......it's only been 7 days. HELPPPPPP!!!!

tweedle!

I hear to loud and clear. my ex has moved out for a month but we get to spend December together-yayyyyy

I get the 'your breaking the family up' speech but I tend to retaliate with 'no you did that when you cheated on me while I was sleeping upstairs'
little git

WINE TIME