Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: thread 26

[CharlotteCollinsismovingon]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

Yay for you, tweedlezee! Isn't it great to have enough emotional energy to be able to deal well with the normal demands of children?

pony and mink, I did panic the first few days of being in my own place: looking round it and thinking, "Who am I kidding? I don't have the sense of style to make this a home!" But then I watched the dc's reactions to the playroom I'd set up: aesthetically, it's crap, but functionally, it has what they want available and ready to use and best of all they don't have to pack it all away all the time. So they love it! Which in turn means I'm happy with it, too.

Still haven't really invited anyone in... but one step at a time, eh?!

howrude - hi. I hope you're getting a bit of relief with your H out of the country. I would suggest while he's gone putting DS's passport in a safe place so that you know he can't run off with him. And photocopying as much as you can find: bank statements, savings, pay slips, pension statements, all that.

It sounds like you are DS's main carer, whatever your work situation, so I'm sure that works to your (and DS's) advantage if/when you split. But as bounty says, the important thing is to get good legal advice so you know where you stand. It gets even more complicated when more than one country is involved!

Btw, how does DS feel about the after-school care? Let that be your guide when planning the future. (My DCs wish they could be in ASC more often, because they have good biscuits and their friends are there. And they have better toys than at home, apparently!)

thanks all - I got legal advice over the summer. I am concerned that he's trying to take me away from being main carer - but I still am (and with very much evidence) inspite of full time.

I'm just finding it hard to cope full time, dh never around to contribute except mess and nastiness. Not enough hours in the day to do everything with h around. Easier and more free time when he's not around.

DS is unhappy - he was saying the other day he hopes I'm sacked from work because who is looking after him. Well, actually, he is being looked after (by me) - he's in first year at junior school. What gets me is speaking to other peope who's familiies are doing family things together. It gets him, so get me. While we spent 3 entire days last year as a family together (I'm talking 24 hour period as us 3) and h clearly thinks that was over the top last year so this year it's been 1 day to date this year.

H's family are difficult and have contributed quite a bit tot he issues but now it's different - he's being a complete f with them too and they are upset and actually contacting me to see if ds and I are OK. I can now talk to them a bit but very much aware that that they are family to him in a way I'm not and they did very much encourage the behaviour in the first place plus there's very little they can do now.

Just worried about ds. It's now very clear that he's very much sucking up to daddy no matter what because he's afraid that he'll get the treatment that I am getting, and now his paternal gran and his paternal aunt are getting. He won't, but he's following his logic.

Thanks guys. I am trying to get my stuff together to look at a house tomorrow. It is pretty hard finding somewhere when you have not worked properly for 3 years. But I am doing it. FW is talking about kids living at his for one week then living at mine for one week. Anyone heard of this? He tried to fib me off with "we'll talk about it later when I am ready" put I pressed on, calmly.
Money is my fear. The cost of rent is so high and I will be living on benefits. JOY! Anyone have good experience of this? I don't want for a lot and I am hoping just having the space to be myself is going to help me drive myself forward.

Also it's clear that h is in big debt - like to know from what as his wife and child are living pretty much on the bread line.

Does anyone else feel completely different towards him flip flopping between hate and aww he's so lovely and then back to fucking prick I hate you a lot?

How do you get a steadyness to your feelings and detach?

Right now he's rung me a million times and wanted me to go, I know I could and it would be all lovely till the next horrible comment or argument but ffs my head hurts.

I am trying really hard to focus on the times when he has been the person I don't love and acknowledge that the likely hood of him returning to that person is very high as he has been that person (whether I have acknowledged it or not) on a regular basis.
also that the times that he has lashed out have always been the times when I have felt at my strongest/most independent.

Do you really believe that he won't change now? I can't get past trying to make him see what he's doing and change.

I do believe they cant change. Yes.

muff I flip all the time. I can love and hate him all within the same night. I'm working towards indifference. Then I think I can be truly detached. Hate is quite close to love in a strange way.

I'm starting to reach tweezle that no they can't change as I their minds they are not wrong so why would they need to change. If they show any attempt to change it is purely in order to keep reeling us in. Ie they are changing to keep us rather than because they don't think they should behave in that way

I think this is the prob my FW has. I wouldn't say I am detatached as I get negative feelings at the sight/sound of him - I just can't really be anywhere near him, it makes me feel ill and he can't stand not having the opportunity to have a go at me, he can't understand how I don't have the need to even have a go at him.
This is because he is so angry all the time and the lies are just totally unbearable to take. I don't need such negativity in an otherwise happy environment.
SS are suggesting brainwashing a course for me and DS (seperatley), when I told people a few weeks ago they could not believe that they do this kind of thing, especially under the circumstances. I am not willing to negotiate with a terrorist. Court ordered it will happen and just use more of the public purse to try and clean up a mess of FWs making that will for ever exist as long as he walks the earth.
All I keeping thinking is it is less than 8 years probably 7 and no more court orders.... there will be light at the end of this tunnel and me and DS will just keep close and as safe as we can until then.

So sad that you have to wish away the rest of your ds's childhood though better

Hi to everyone, have been away from my computer for a few days, reading on my phone but haven't had a chance to post.

I want to say a big thank you to you all you don't realize it, but thinking about what you all would have said about my situation(s) over the weekend kept my sanity and even got me laughing about some things that happened that were so straight out of the 'how to be a FW' textbook that they were worthy of gold medals. But I am in danger as usual of brushing everything under the carpet so will document here.

I have been away for a few days, birthday 'day out' then we went up to visit his family for a couple of days as his brother is very ill but doing OK after a major operation. I have basically capitulated and surrendered, and can say hand on heart I have been as supportive as a wife could be in this situation.

I've got something that I want to run past you, I will try to keep it brief and to the point but I know it's going to be long, sorry, I REALLY cannot decided whether I should be OK with this or not.

My point of view:
Saturday morning-- birthday. I woke up early-ish, had a text from friends to confirm they were leaving at 11:00, I said I would have to check whether I would come with them or perhaps see them later on that day, I tried to keep it light and breezy and not scream I DON'T KNOW WTF IS GOING ON BECAUSE H WON'T TELL ME.... as he'd been in such a bad mood the night before. But his last words to me had been that because I wasn't behaving (or somesuch) he was going to cancel everything so I had no idea what was happening.

Then he came down about 9:00 with my present he'd bought the night before (which was why he was back so late, spent ages choosing exactly what he wanted ) which I opened, a lovely mini ipad and remote speakers, very nice. then he said that we needed to leave in the car RIGHT THEN as he wanted to miss the traffic this was probably the low point of my day as I realized that he was going ahead with his plans regardless. So I just went along with it, we drove to pick up DS at his uni then on to Oxford to see DD, found a parking space at a meter... H had a mini-meltdown at the meter... I said I would put three hours on (maximum available, £4) and H said that we were only there to pick up DD and it was a huge waste of money to put extra time on so just to get the minimum which was 30 mins (£2 I think). I said why? we should keep our options open for lunch and see what everyone wants to do (thinking the kids might NOT want to come to pub with my friends and DD might have an idea of where to go) but he said 'no, YOU want to see your friends at that pub where they're going so we will go there and have lunch there, you can join your friends for a drink'. I said 'no, I don't think I want to just see them for a drink, it might be awkward if I arrive with the whole family so we'll just do what YOU had planned'. (NB I know he hadn't actually planned anything just the idea that we would find a place for lunch.)

Of course he made a big deal of insisting that we go... so we drove there, it was a really nice place... then I had to handle the MOST AWKWARD situation EVER I hope I don't make too big a deal of this because it was a nice place and it was a lovely meal and everyone was nice about it but: friends had booked table which we could have tagged onto the end of as a group of 4, but H insisted that we get our own table a bit away. And kids agreed, then I agreed didn't want to spoil friends' meal by them having to make stilted conversation. I had absolutely NO idea what the protocol should be... do I abandon family and sit with friends? Do I abandon friends and sit with family? I basically did that. I tried to flit between the two tables but was a bit tricky to butt in on conversations. Anyway, had a very nice meal, made my apologies about having to cancel out of going to the show that night (even though they said we could get an extra ticket and H could come too!!) it was awkward but we finally left... went back into Oxford, parked car again and walked around a bit (rather aimlessly, no 'birthday' emphasis or cake for me or anything-- that was OK with me, but still a bit remiss of him to ignore... at least I think you should joke around with someone on their birthday and say they could buy/do/eat WHATEVER THEY WANT iyswim!!) H made a big deal about having given me the ipad.

So we drove DS back to uni afterwards, then we drove home and I made H a bacon sandwich (or more accurately H demanded a bacon sandwich) while he played with the new ipad and set it up with the speakers. I seem to remember reaching for it at one point (we were trying to figure out the volume buttons) and he PUSHED my hand away! !! !! and I was like GRRRRRR it was supposed to be my toy!

But. It was basically a nice day. Or maybe it wasn't? I just cannot figure out anything any more. The truth is if I just do what he says all is fine for example, if I'd just immediately cancelled with friends, without even TELLING him I'd had alternative plans, then clapped my hands with delight because he'd had the idea of going to Oxford with the kids, then just been passively accepting of everything that came my way it could be viewed as a stellar birthday, and effort on his part. But I am feeling completely neutral-- possibly the fact that I now own a mini ipad (even though he thinks it's sort-of-his-because-he-paid-for-it) is cancelling out the STEAMING RAGE I felt about him 'forcing' that awkward situation at the pub.

And this is the first time I've had to sit and write this down but I had a thought-- to look at it from his point of view.

Now this is POSSIBLY his point of view:
I planned a really nice day out getting the kids together to have lunch in Oxford. I hadn't told her about it so it would be a surprise. She told me at the last minute that she had other plans with her friends but I told her to cancel because I'd gone to all the trouble. But because her friends were going to Oxford as well I told her she could meet up with them for a short time which she thought was OK. She's saying something about a show in the evening that one of them was singing in but I don't want to go (I think they are a bunch of old ladies and I only like to hang out with young, interesting people) so I told her that she couldn't go, she said that she could have gone with them and one would have given her a lift back but I know that would only cause a big hassle for me so I said no to that. So we had a nice lunch at the pub, then we went into Oxford and walked around, then we drove DS back to his uni, got home, I was so tired from driving all that way that I had to sit down and rest, all I asked for for dinner was a simple bacon sandwich. I got her a really nice present of a mini iPad and speakers, so I got it out and figured out how to work it so I could show her how to do it. So now I don't have to look at her squinting at her phone all the time which really annoys me. If I see her squinting at her phone again I am going to shout at her (and .... etc etc!)

Anyway. More things happened, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday not totally BAD per se but any time I asserted myself I got totally shot down by him. Textbook. Going to call WA to rebook appointment I had to cancel yesterday (of course H didn't know about it but I had to cancel when he decided I had to accompany him up north). H is working until Friday so I'm so glad to have some time to myself at last we've been together 24/7 since Saturday!

PS sorry such a long pointless story, I don't think I need to be told that I need to LTB yet again! I think I know that. But raging anger might get some momentum going.

Looking forward to reading back over everyone else's posts! Will have some free time to comment later!

muff sorry to be the voice of doom but he won't change. he won't realise what he is doing because a) he already knows and does not care and b) he cannot really hear you, not really.

If he does change it will only be because he really wants to. and as he already knows he has made you suffer, your suffering will not change him. if it would he would have changed already

you can only change yourself.

and yy to love and hate. while you still hate them they still have you. that is why the train's penultimate destination on the way to freedom is indifference yes it has to pass through all the other stations first, grief, anger, hatred, the rather lovely station of no-it-really-wasn't-my-fault, but indifference is the place to get to and they will do everything in their Fwitty little powers to stop you getting there.

better if I could just whisk you and DS away from it all I would. it is not fair I hope whatever stupid half arsed misguided plan they do come up with they monitor it closely so that if they (SS) see it having any effect on DS they adjust it accordingly. although I suspect FW being a FW if he gets what he wants, will no longer want it. Because all he really wants is as you rightly say it to try to keep you engaged in his little drama. so hopefully once he has played this out as far as he can possibly play it out he will do what most FWs of his sort do when they finally get access and not turn up after the first time.
Of all the FWs better I think your makes the most and . I know that probably does not help but the whole thing just sucks.
but as you say at the end of it, the core of it, there is you and there is DS and you just need to hold strong in the face of the storm and let it pass and most of the time he will not be there and it will just be you two and those times will see you through and DS will always have the strength and the love that you have given him as his shield and his armour that and the fact that he is clearly a tough and smart little cookie in his own right. FW is just an annoying little gnat.

thats It was basically a nice day. Or maybe it wasn't? It was basically a day that you know could have been an awful lot worse.
but without him it would probably have been a lot better.

Stick to your guns. WA appointment and get those big noisy clogs on, nail some segs to the soles of them for extra noise and get ready to dance out the door. you have done your time thats (being punished for a crime you didn't commit) the dcs are safely at uni. Time to live noisily in big shoes.

SO I looked at a house. now busy breaking down at the thought of having to ask my dad for a crap load of money to move into the place. my head is spinning thinking "why am I 30 with nothing?" ok, yes I know, I have 2 sleeping beauties, gorgeous kids but everything else he has taken away and then got ANGRY at me for not being grateful enough. Need money to fall form the sky!!!!!!!!!!

Well we ended up in bed together last night, he was pissed off with me all day because I lost my phone so didn't speak to him till evening time, in his head he had planned for us to have a nice evening he had bought food to cook blababla but because I didn't speak to him till 7ish he threw a little tantrum then turned up at mine ten to eleven with a pot of food for me.

We spoke a lot again last night but nothing changes he's a prick and my attitude stinks. One minute he's all lovely dovey and the next he';s telling me he's going away for christmas even though we already spoke about christmas a couple weeks back and said we were all spending it together.

Apparently we would be perfect for each other but the T in team is missing and there is something making a big wedge between us in his opinion. He is also really hurt about some of my comments and jokes apparently.

He cooked me breakfast and drove me to work, even though the dc are away on holiday with my mum and he knows I'm all on my own I'm not allowed to stay at his. Friday we're going out with dc to a firework display.

Right now though I have a date with someone else, am so debating whether to go or not arghhh what do I do??

Fuck it I'm going on the date, whats the worst that can happen I meet somebody nice who is actually stable and kind and doesn't be horrible to me just because he feels like it.

I just cannot figure out anything any more. The truth is if I just do what he says all is fine-- for example, if I'd just immediately cancelled with friends, without even TELLING him I'd had alternative plans, then clapped my hands with delight because he'd had the idea of going to Oxford with the kids, then just been passively accepting of everything that came my way it could be viewed as a stellar birthday, and effort on his part. You have just summed up my whole life. As long as I was passive and I agreed and I didn't speak up or out, as long as MY attitude was good, everything is fine. My heart twist like a squeezed lemon when I read everything. Like why have I let myself be repeatedly beaten down. I am so STRONG!!!

tweedle 30 is young!! I expect your parents still kind of think of themselves as young too :) If they can spare the money, please ask them. Family money should be translated into happy lives for the family, if poss - that's what we oldies not-so-young people think, usually. Not for spoiling, not for making the young dependant. But for escaping to freedom, Yyy.

silverypussycat You mean I still have time to sort my life out? Now that is good to hear.
I have indeed sort out some support. it is just a kick in the teeth because I have given my all, to this home, this house, my kids. And yet here I am, moving out. He WILL NOT move out. he has his reasons, of course he will never share those. it is all about control and a lack of respect. I see that. but it hurts that people just want to KEEP on hurting you when they have already damaged you so much.

Turning 30 is always a shock to those turning 30 as I expect many of us can attest. It's probably been like this since the dawn of time.

Plenty of time in the next decade to consolidate the learning of the decade you've just lived. I would have been sad to have to leave this house, but had a plan if I'd had to do so.

One thing I did before we split was to hide my most precious kitchen utensils, ornaments etc - they were 'mine' but he'd probably have picked a childish squabble over them. I also collected bits and bobs from charity shops which I knew would decorate my house after the settlement, wherever I ended up.

I actually enjoyed turning 30. I felt I was properly grown-up and not just faking it. I no longer cared about fitting some image that others might or might not have of me; I thought more about who I was and what I wanted to be (within the confines of what was possible given the stressful day-to-day existence of life with H).

I made a few big mistakes in my 20s... And probably already regretted them by my 30th. And all this might even help me over the hurdle of my 40th!

Aww thanks. good wise words. I like the idea of collecting things up. I have started looking around the house at what is mine (most of it). I cant help but feel sad for the home that will be left once I remove all my things. Just for the sake of my kids as I know what a sh*t tip FW can leave it in when left to his own devices.
I look forward to leaving the mistakes of my 20's behind and bringing forward with me the 2 people who have made it all worth while.

I feel embarrassed quite often just about the whirl wind relationship which led me to this place. There are lots of "it was fast" comments from helpful relatives. I really believed in love though and thought we had that and it would see us through. It seemed like we made a good team. But now I realise that is because I was so besotted that I was happy to do whatever made him happy. But not the other way around.

FW just came in to have a chat with me about our future. I have just informed him again that I do not want to be in a relationship. The following was said by him:
1: I don't think you have tried hard enough
2: I think you have too much of a temper, what are you going to do about it? me: move out this house and then I will feel more relaxed and in control of my life.
3: i think we should see a councillor me: I don't think it would help and it would not change my mind
4: I think it could mess up the kids if you leave me: they are young, they will be fine
5: I will have to make sure the house you are moving to will be ok for them to live in me (in head) you mean complain about everything you see?
6: I don't think you have tried hard enough to make this work.
7: ooh I am sure there was another one.....oh yes, that he thinks I have been speaking to other people who have twisted my mind about it. me: no, I have not. I came to this decision all by myself.
(because obvs. I cannot be trusted to make my own decisions

oh and I forgot the best one "you are being irrational and over-dramatic".

But I did not react. I kept very calm. Good job I was practising my controlled breathing before he got home. I am very relaxed. I was thinking about that glass of wine on my sofa in my new house.