Putting 2+2 together and coming up with ....?

[Imonlydreaming]

I can't actually believe that I am typing this but I am getting myself in a real tizz about this situation.
My DH has recently begun working a bit further from home and pretty soon after that he started to "stay over" first in hotels, and now in a work colleagues house. (A man if that makes a difference) 2-3 times a week.

The other day our phones were on the side and one of them went off - he said was it yours - not actually asking me to look at his but I did and he had a text that said "I love you xxxxxxxxx" - not from me.
He got up and came over when he saw me open his phone and said straightaway - I used to work with her. Then told me a story about another friend who'd done the same to him. I thought it was strange, but people do make mistakes like that don't they?

After that his phone has had a pass code on - which he told me was because someone at work had taken his phone and left it in a communal area - possibly as a joke. Perfectly plausible of the place he works at.

Today he was having trouble with the signal on his phone and I asked if I could have the number where he's staying and he said that his own mobile would work there. Not actually refusing to give it to me - said he'd do it later (but hasn't).

Well of course the reason I'm writing this down is that I'm suspicious - we haven't exactly been that physical recently - but with 2 toddlers who don't sleep through and lots of illness and other family issues/ illness it's just been a bad time.

Am I reading between the lines and seeing an issue that isn't there? I know that a bunch of strangers on the Internet can't tell me the answers. I just know I couldn't talk to anyone in RL and to ask him would open a can of worms - that I'm just not ready to face.

Thanks for reading.

How are your DCs?

At the moment they know no different he was preparing us all for this time.
They're happy and lovely

Yes it's hard :( Never as simple as it seems on the periphery.

Yes - as I said, it's hard. You've lived with him, cooked food with him, laughed with him, had him there while you bore his kids......and yet he could mangle you in this way?

Could you any longer bear the thought of his hand on your body?

Worse even than that we've cried together over so many things - his mum dying, my dads ill health, my redundancy, his previous work situation, the pain of infertility, the fear of premature birth, the hospital stays and he truly was my rock.
And now when I need one .....

I am somewhat repulsed by him - but I found myself today thinking the same of all the men I saw - is that normal?!

Yes normal to be repulsed by all men. After all, if the one you had enough faith in to marry and have kids with could do this then what other shitbags are out there?!! It's a normal reaction and hopefully won't last forever otherwise you may need to take a vow of celibacy or consider women instead ;)

The reason I asked you when he met her was because I've seen it said time and time again on here that an affair starts from that point- even if it's only in the head for a while.

So if you remember him talking about her a lot almost a year ago, that's probably when that process of withdrawal started. The affair probably stepped up a gear in March or they had to switch to evening meet-ups for some reason. I think it's looking fairly obvious that he wasn't staying at a friend's and so I'd think he was either staying at hers or if she's living with someone herself, hotels. You need a lot of money for hotels so I would have thought that's where the secret loan came in. That money must be linked to the affair in some way, otherwise why not tell you about it?

What E mail did you see that proved he was sleeping at the office tonight? If it's one relating to the purchase of a camp bed, that proves nothing does it?

You are doing great today and you do sound a bit tougher and less inclined to believe his lies. But I wouldn't worry about feeling differently to how you thought you'd be. If I've learnt one thing on MN it's that this is one of those situations where few people behave and feel like they thought they would. It's so easy for people to say 'kick him out and don't look back' a) if they haven't been through it and b) if they had no real choice in the matter when their own relationship ended, but they've re-written history a bit and like people to think they ended the relationship.

The best advice has always seemed to me to take your time, try to verify everything you're being told and let the shock wear off before making any irreversible decisions.

So although you might have people like me urging you to start making your own enquiries and to stop believing everything he tells you, folk are on your side and are just trying to bring a detachment and objectivity to a situation we know you cannot possibly feel at the moment.

You still want and need to believe him. We don't have those wants and needs. We want you to have the truth so that you can make the best decision for you and your kids.

Oh good that I'm normal for wanting all men to stay at least 100 meters away from me and not look at or smile at me.
But then I don't actually want any people around me while I try and make sense of what is in my head - endured 2 hours of torture today with the hairdresser.
I just wanted to scream I don't care about your new dining room curtains or whatever she was blathering on about

Gosh yes September is nearly a year - my poor addled brain

My it skills are pretty poor but I was looking through computer history and under today's date and emails was the purchase of a camp bed and sleeping bag which he did say he was going to do - still not clear why though

dreaming

You keep looking back and i think you need to look forward, Could you try that do you think? (It may be hard.)

Dreaming, de-lurking to send you some virtual hugs and support.

What you are going through is unbelievably hard, the life you thought you had has just collapsed around you and the person you need most for support, comfort and love at this time is the very same person who has caused all this turmoil.

I was you 7 or 8 years ago. DH denied affair with work colleague (despite overwhelming evidence), I was busy with 3 teenage children and a demanding business and initially tried to ignore the signs. Won't bore you with all the details but after months and months of denial and extremely bad behaviour I finally told him to leave. That was the catalyst for change, no longer was the affair a "dirty secret", I told my family and a handful of friends, the people I needed for support.

Dh meanwhile had to come to terms with what he had done, and put me through, by himself. OW was still in the picture but for some strange reason was less attractive out in the open!

He knew that I would not speak with him again about our relationship unless he told the truth, on my terms, not what he thought I wanted to hear. I needed to know about it all, every last gory, hurtful bit.

We had no communication whilst he processed this, it took about 14 days before we finally met up. (2 days of this he spent with OW!)

I just told him that I did love him but I was not prepared to compete with anybody else and if he was happier with someone else then so be it, nothing I can do, I would prefer him to be happy with someone else rather than miserable with me. His choices were to either go to OW or recommit to our relationship.

He chose to recommit but this meant changing jobs (immediately) , individual counselling for him so he could work out why he allowed this affair to happen, full access to his mobile etc. The counselling for him was excellent, nothing to do with me, or our relationship, he had a chance to discuss with someone external to me why he allowed this affair to occur.

I chose to stay with DH, despite his flaws, not because I am a walk over or mug or in denial or anything else, thirty years ago I would have said, infidelity = divorce, but it is not as black and white as that. We are now older, wiser and aware of boundaries.

Basically, what I am saying is, your DH needs to show you in actions that he is absolutely disgusted with his behaviour, and not trying to pin any blame onto you. This behaviour is down to him.

Only you will know in your heart when your DH is doing this, don't allow him to minimise this, it is absolutely heartbreaking

Just Big Hugs xx

I've just read fireplaces thread

Sorry to hear I'm doing it all wrong - didn't know I was in a bloody competition

Huh ? (I haven't read that thread you mentioned.) You're not in any competition that I can think of.

What a brilliant post Aspie.

Re. the looking back, I gather this is a completely natural thing to do to try to make sense of a period of time when all was not what it seemed. Especially, I'd have thought if there's a risk that lies are still being told about when it started, how often they met etc.

I expect you were meant to see the e mail about the camp bed Dreaming. He told you he was sleeping at the office. Doesn't mean the two things are in any way connected or that that's where he is though.

ignore that comment, totally unhelpful. You want comfort and reassurance from the person who's meant to give you that and you miss your life partner. Of course you do. But you can't pretend it hasn't happened. It will come back and bit you.

Ignore which comment?

Sorry just was pointed towards that thread as a example of someone doing so well and I see that wellwobbly says I'm an example of someone doing it all wrong

I agree that you were meant to see that purchase, dreaming. Seems convenient such things should be available to you but none of their mountains of correspondence. I suspect you are not quite yet able to see round all the corners of deception and manipulation he may be consciously or unconsciously providing. Don't forget he's been doing this for nearly a year, lying to you and covering his tracks and asking you to believe one thing when the truth was another. Why would it suddenly change? Particularly if it works.
I was referring to the comment dreaming was hurt by in the other thread, unhelpful and untrue.

Don't expect too much from yourself just yet. You are in shock, you are still reeling from everything you've found out over the last couple of weeks. There is so much to take in, it's too much right now.

You just need to concentrate on looking after yourself and your children. Are you eating?

I'm sensing a bit of anger, dreaming ? However generated, I think that that's better than the mope you were in.

I am trying hard to look to the future but I can only see sadness at the moment - about our DCs, our families and Friends and future events

Managing a bit of sleep and sitting down to eat with the DCs helps although nothing tastes good and they're probably actually consuming more than me

I don't know what to think about that email - he wouldn't know that I would look at the history like that and probably wouldn't expect me to know how ( and believe me I surprised myself)

I don't think I'm at the anger stage yet - still in the disbelief and denial part

Everything just seems to be coming at me and I get little jolts like I've been punched in the stomach again and again. Then I go back to a numbness where I feel only vaguely aware.

On my walk today I was in a daze then suddenly remembered what had happened - that was a horrible moment

I actually feel as if someone else is controlling my actions I was surprised to find I'd done all the washing up earlier

Hello dreaming. I have read all of this thread and my heart breaks for you because I have been in this position however, my now-husband's affair resulted in a baby. That was 7 years ago (we have been together 9 years) and we got married 5 years ago and are very happy. You will be happy again, perhaps with your husband or on your own - but you WILL be ok, promise.

Firstly, I would say go easy on yourself - you will look back and realise that this was the car crash period. In the immediate aftermath of my husband's affair, I could barely function and would agree/persuade myself of anything because the thought of life without him was terrifying. Only when the dust has settled and you have got some breathing space, will you be able to think clearly. If you don't want to do something (like the DCs going away overnight), don't do it. I would strongly consider physical distance from him though (moves out for a time, contact on YOUR terms. if he goes to stay with her, then he's a played his joker, frankly). This is a crisis in your life and you are allowed to call the shots. Rest when you can, eat and vegetate, take it one step at a time. All the Beyonce shit can come later.

Secondly, I would really consider telling a friend. Whether you stay in the marriage or separate, this is a long haul situation, I'm afraid, and you will need support to have anything like a good shot at it. I was surprised by how accepting people could be - there aren't many people who haven't experienced something horrific in their lives and you will also be surprised by how many people have been through this scenario themselves.

Thirdly, I think you must work on accepting that they will have had a full sexual relationship; people don't have affairs because the chemistry isn't amazing and their groins aren't on fire. Your husband will deny this (the pattern of only admitting to what he knows you can prove is spot on) but unfortunately until he is full and frank about this, it will be very difficult for you to accept apologies and forgive him - or at the very least accept that he has finished the affair and wants to move on with you. I don't personally think you need to see the agonising texts, emails etc - I can promise you that they will contain all the usual smutty, gooey shit that you would have sent your husband when you first met and will only turn your stomach and serve to torture you needlessly. But I must say that unless your husband comes completely clean, I don't think things can truly move forward.

Which leads me to:

Fourthly, your husband must quite simply agree to all your demands and nothing less. For me I demanded that my husband would be in contact 24 hrs a day for the rest of his life (he is, but it is not an issue now - more anon), go to Relate with me, go to counselling on his own (family issues/stress/anger) and no more lies. Ever. This was even more complicated as he wanted to support her in her pregnancy (as much as you can support someone you don't really know, only see late at night, don't actually want a long term relationship with let alone a family). Like I said, car crash. Looking back, those first 3 months were horrendous made worse by the fact that we were living abroad at the time and I felt very excluded by my social group who seemed disgusted by me because I wanted to stay with him (understandable yes but didn't really help me when I felt I was breaking down). If he works with her, he must change jobs, his phone must be freely available, (I demanded that my husband call her on speaker phone - I still wince at the hurt and betrayal in her voice when he told her exactly whose side his bread was buttered on) there must be no squirming and he must agree to answer all your questions truthfully (he will try to 'protect' you from the gory details ((unless he's an utter sadist - unlikely)) but examining some of the gruesome detail is a way of processing the experience so that you can then move on. This however may take a few weeks to hammer home but he is probably trying to extricate himself from her and is not thinking straight - in short he is utterly fucked up right now, I'd say. But ultimately, when the dust settles he must willingly do all he can to make you happy and regain trust - no compromises.

Fifthly, forget about her. She is not a monster. Unless your husband chooses to be with her, which let's be candid, does happen but not that much given that it's not actually that sexy shacking up together with less money, someone else's kids to deal with on your lovely weekends, a man who's lost his children and the excitement of illicit sex long gone, oh and the mundane domesticity (towels on floor, spending hours on the loo - men are so sexy) which is a serious relationship, she does not need to concern you. It is hard not to have a film reel in your head of all those moments that are torturing you, like some sexy French black and white film; the reality is not half so smouldering and sexy so de-heat those thoughts. But disengage from her - as they say, resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Whether you stay in your marriage or not ( and your husband sounds like he's shitting himself that you won't), you do not need that woman using up your energy; he betrayed you, not her.

Sixthly (!), in terms of harbouring resentment and grudges, I don't. Believe me, I am amazed by this as I was always very jealous and no second chances. But what happened to us was so huge that it went beyond platitudes. I very soon realised that this woman and the baby would be in our lives forever and, if I wanted to stay with my husband, I would have to truly accept and forgive. This would not have been possible if he hadn't enthusiastically agreed to every demand I made. It took a whole year before I felt normal again and the first few months were hellish. A male friend whose wife had cheated on him (although he then ended the marriage) said that he could only move on by mentally closing the door on the horrid images and thoughts - they only hurt YOU in the end - the other two aren't agonising over who made the first move and what sexual positions they did. It takes discipline but if you want to feel clean in your mind and not have his betrayal keep pushing its ugly way in, it can be done - whether you stay with him or not. I now feel strong as a woman - I've looked the abyss in the face - and I didn't compromise my morals either (I forced my husband to go to a solicitor about access and maintenance as I knew we needed legal provision for the baby in the midst of the emotional ten-car pile up and my husband, and her if I'm honest, just wanted to stick their heads in the sand. You need to be equally pragmatic about protecting yourself financially and seeing a solicitor). I trust my husband as much as any one can trust another human being, which is to say that human beings make mistakes - sometimes huge ones. I have not felt the need to look at my husband's phone etc for many years now and he is in a job where he commutes at the weekend ( we both travel a lot for our jobs). I have no issue with this but only because he has bent over backwards since the affair to make things right with me and I trust and love him.

I sincerely hope you aren't awake reading this but if you do get to read it I am sending you a lot of love. X

Dreaming I am so sorry that my careless way of putting something added to your burden right now. I am so sorry, and wish I hadn't done that. You are in so much shock and pain right now, and all you deserve is support.

What I meant to point your attention to, is the clearness of Fireplace, and look at Aspiegran above, too. Boom, that's it, and then they take steps to protect themselves. Do you notice in both cases it is through complete no contact?

The point about cheating is it is about playing. Mr I'm All That gets one thing here and another thing there, and he does it by playing it all off (and I am sorry but they get a kick out of it. What breaks your heart, makes them feel clever).
If you read Leavenheath she is warning you about still giving him a foot in your world to play. You are still letting him in (to your soul), still talking to him (and believing what he says to you).

I think that I said it to you 'urgently' because that is the mistake I made too. I kept on talking to him, I kept on asking him stuff he didn't want to answer and still hoping he would 'get it' with my 'nagging' and consider his family important enough to change for.
But what that treating them like old times (with a bit of anger and shock thrown in) does is that it lets them know that they can still wriggle out of this if they 'play' it right, when playing (deceiving and manipulating) and not the OW is the problem. Thinking they are above looking at themselves and can get away from stuff is the problem. So any message we can give that we can still be played, gives us the worst result we dread, ANYWAY.

If you have any spare cash at all for a PI, or a trusted friend, I would have him followed from work to whereever he is 'camping'. You have let him explain where he was staying at night to save himself his long commute and believed it without question. The elephant in the room is the fact that he had two homes with a different woman in each. Does he still have two homes????

Dreaming, this is all so so hard. But not going Boom! Thats it (the ball is in your court), not telling people, not making him take the children this weekend, protecting the secret and him from consequences so he can keep ducking and diving is death by a 1000 cuts and I have to admit it hurts watching it. But then, you're on a learning journey too.

and see a solicitor. This is part of that's it, boom too. You WILL NOT continue to carry on behaving/thinking the way you have, and continue to have me in your life.

(the other mistake I made was not making him call her on speaker phone with me present. I couldn't, because we were in different countries, but very sadly he slowly found that he was getting away with stuff and his 'way of being' wasn't challenged.)