Is this worth pursuing?

[maryclarey]

I'm sorry - this is long. I'll try to be succinct. I just need some perspective.

A few months ago I started seeing someone having just ended a long term relationship. We both agreed it was casual at the beginning, meeting just for sex. I would go to his place (I was staying on a friends sofa bed at the time) and go home that night. He didn't want a relationship and neither did I. That was fine, for a while. I started to have some feelings but I kept them in check as I didn't want to get too close.

Things started to change a little, in that I started staying overnight at his invitation and we would spend time talking about our lives rather than just having sex.

Around the time I moved into my own place I decided to take a risk and ask him on a real date. He said he was comfortable with that but jokingly said he might freak out if I asked him to move in or something. I said he didn't need to worry about that at this point (for goodness sake!). We were both nervous on the date but it was lovely.

A few dates and weeks later he turned up at my place late one night telling me how much he liked being with me and how he hadn't slept with anyone else since we met. I didn't really respond much because he was a bit drunk at the time and I was a bit caught off guard and didn't know how to take it. However we kept seeing each other, having a really good time and started alternating staying at his place and mine, going on proper dates and not always having sex, just being quietly comfortable in each others company. We didn't talk about that night again.

I've met his brother who he lives with, and he's met my best friends who I live with. We have socialised with both. We haven't met any other of our groups of friends. He has told his work mates about me and I have told mine about him (our companies are linked). He's agreed to come to a work function with me, no hesitation.

We now spend practically every weekend together, it's grown to three nights a week if we are both in town. He takes me to nice places and seems proud to be seen with me. I feel the same way.

I started to feel I needed to know if we were heading somewhere. Unfortunately I decided to raise this at 4am when we had both been out drinking. I thought I asked him if he saw me as a potential girlfriend when or if that time came, he thought I was asking if he saw me as his girlfriend right now. He said no. He said he is enjoying what we have and how we are getting to know each other now and he wants to see where things go. He got quite upset, talking about how when he moves in with someone it'll be the person he wants to marry. I asked who had even mentioned moving in? He really jumped the gun but as I say, we had been drinking. Next morning we talked a little more. I cleared up the misunderstanding about my question the night before but made it clear I don't want to get hurt again, waiting around for something that might never happen (as in my last relationship). He said he understood but he wants to take things slow, by which I took to mean he felt I was rushing him. He had to leave for work then, he was concerned I was still a bit upset, gave me a hug, kissed me several times and left.

We are affectionate in public and he holds my hand and is a gentleman in general. He has passed the waitress test with flying colours and is generous and kind to all. He has a great relationship with his family. However, he has told me how he has ended relationships in the past because he realised when they started talking about moving in together that he didn't want to marry them, so he called them off. He did live with one partner and from what I gather it ended badly, which may be where his fear of commitment stems from, I don't know.

So my question is, dear mumsnetters, am I wasting my time or should I give him some time to see if it goes anywhere? I don't want to be a mug but I don't want to let something potentially good slip through my fingers.

Apologies for the epic length of this post!

TIA

Another phrase is 'not reaching out your hand further than you can pull it back' - I think some commitment phobes get a lot of comfort from knowing that their BF/GF is more 'attached' than they are, and I think that's unfair! So being less 'available' is a reasonable approach IMO.

Bloody hell OP if I wasn't living with him, i'd think you were talking about my DP

This sounds so similar to how we started off 6 years ago. DP was 36 when I met him. Previous LTR with live in partner, bad ending, breaking off relationships with other women as soon as commitment was mentioned.

I had not long come out of a LTR myself, so I wasn't looking for anything serious. We started off very casual, pretty much as your situation is now. After a few months I started feeling just like you. Even had the conversation (drunk) with him, which had the same outcome

This went on for longer than I'd like to admit actually. I had the same advice as you're getting from some posters i.e move on. It took me a while though. Apart from the lack of label as 'girlfriend', we had so much fun (outside the bedroom Val , it wasn't as easy as believing him to be an arsehole. He wasn't.

Though it got to a point where it became painful, him not wanting a committed relationship. By that time I was ready for one. I started to detach emotionally, not being so available and became open to the idea that there were other men just as nice as him out there, but who wanted a relationship.

I had to cut contact for my own sanity in the end. I told him exactly why too.

I went on a few dates after that with someone else. About 3 months after I ended the 'relationship' (although we spoke on the phone occasionally during that time) he turned up on my doorstep.

To cut a long (sorry!) story short, we have been living together for 3 years and planning our wedding. I didn't just drop everything for him though, he had to prove it by being committed. That took a couple of months before I decided to give him the chance. We haven't looked back since.

So after my bloody long post, my advice is to just go with the flow, for now. Keep an open mind to other relationships and don't be so available to him. It's still early days. If he wants to make a commitment, he will. But if not, you won't be as hurt as you would be putting all your eggs in one basket.

Tuna, what a tale! you give me hope and more good advice. Thank you

Can I just say OP, a work colleague has been going through something very similar too, although they're older. She confides in me a lot because of my relationship.

Hers has been going on for more years than mine. He recently declared his love and commitment blah blah, only after she met and started dating someone else.

Difference being, she has blown him off . He took too long to make up his bloody mind, she has met such a lovely man. He hasn't got a patch on the new one. The new one is what she deserves. She's a lovely lady

Good for her!

I think the most important thing in ANY relationship is not to give your whole self over to anyone. Have him in your life, but have your life too. Don't make him a central character in a play that he may have no intention of starring in.
Be who you are, don't apologise for needing to know that he is somewhere on the same page. You are at the stage where you want to open your heart and your life to him further and you'd like some reassurance beforehand because you have experience of being hurt. This is a perfectly natural, normal and acceptable need.
His reaction to your discussion is due to one of two things IMO. 1 he has been hurt too, his feelings for you are more than he expected and he is scared to open up to you, or 2. He likes what's happening now, he enjoys your company and the sex but is still on the look out for 'the one'. You are an 'until then' relationship.
It is possible to be solicitous, kind, enjoying of another's company and sex without being in, or having any likelihood of being in love with the person you are doing all this with. If he has got to 38 and is not in a committed relationship with a family already then it is POSSIBLE (and I write that in caps because I realise this is not always the case, some people just honestly don't find the right person) that he is just one of those people who is never going to be prepared to share their lives in that way with anyone.
I know it is still early days, I would be out off if he were asking you to move in together etc at this stage too, BUT to not even call you his girlfriend, which lets face is is a very broad and bland term, is a big red flag for me. He is 38, by now he KNOWS if he wants you as a girlfriend or not.

She's 65! So there's still plenty of time for you. Don't think you're too old please, i'm the same age as you

Delayed Good post.

There is a lot of truth in that. DP had been in a committed relationship before him met me. It ended badly, I won't go into details but it was a painful break up, lost his home etc. Thankfully no DC involved. So he had been capable of commitment, his was just a fear of it happening again.

Work colleague - He had got to 60 odd years old without living with anyone or having a commitment relationship. He just didn't have it in him and likes his life just how it is. I don't think she'd ever be happy with him. He seems pretty clueless as to what a real relationship is like.

Delayed, maybe you are right but I have to find out for sure... up to that point things felt so right. I can't yet believe it meant nothing.

I really wouldn't get hung up on the 'girlfriend' label.

For him it could be a synonym for 'partner'.

I agree that some men/women of 38 are not cut out for a permanent relationship, but often it's down to not meeting the right person, as you said.

One of my ex's didn't marry till he was 50. He was 35 when we met. He dated someone for 10 years ( after me) but he assured me ( we stayed friends) that he was always very clear with her that he would never marry her as she wasn't 'the one'. Within 6 months of her leaving him he'd married someone else.

I'm not so hung up on the term. More I want to be reassured I'm not the only one with feelings here. I know, I know...

Would I be wrong in thinking that someone who adopts the name 'crapartist' might have self-esteem issues?

Anyway, it's hard to go from the easygoing, just-passing relationship to the real deal, in theory it's a natural progression but often the former is about avoiding the latter...

That's it isn't it? Because things are good between you (commitment aside) it feels as though he feels like that but is too scared to admit it for whatever reason.

In some cases that's true, in others its because they're good actors and want to keep you sweet to get the no strings sex.

When DP admitted how he felt, I was like 'I fucking knew you did, you idiot!'

It's so bloody confusing.

There is no need to stop seeing him. But I think you just have to realise that he does not want to be committed in any way. That's quite hard to accept. If this was five years on or even two years on it would be different. But it's only a few months. I'm quite old fashioned in a lot of my thinking but I certainly don't go along with what Val said on the first page re men see women in two camps.

Only read the first and last page but you seem to be at much the same place.
Men love free sex and female attention. It saves them from only self relief, or paying for it, or just having to do without. He sounds as slippery as an eel. The fact that you're becoming more and more emotionally involved in this relationship is probably a pest and a problem for him. If he was falling in love with you surely he'd react differently from this, no matter what happened to him in the past? You're a completely different person, after all. Why can't he be optimistic about you? Or willing to risk it?
Couldn't you just tell him you'd be very happy to go out with him and have nice times together as friends but actual sex is off the menu from now on because you feel you like are being used to some extent (whether it's true or not) and tell him that feeling like this makes you lose your self respect.
Tell him that with you sex involves emotions whereas you know that a man can happily have sex with a stranger and walk away. Tell him this straight out and honestly.
But now for a lie maybe - Also tell him that you had a very bad experience in the past (which you have never mentioned to him) in which a man loved having sex with you and was very nice to you but when it came to the next natural stage he vanished out of your life! Tell him this even if it's a total lie! It'll give you an excellent excuse for withholding sex from him. Tell him nicely and say that you're sure he'll understand.
If he's still wanting to take you out for meals and the theatre or whatever after about 4 months of this, well, that would indicate he really wants you for yourself and is very fond of you!
But for this to work there's have to be zero exceptions. Allowing him to get you a bit drunk and then doing it will get you nowhere and will prove nothing. You need to be firm and have your wits about you at all times and stick to the plan! You mustn't let him be fully in control of how things are to go. it puts you in a very inferior position.
That's my advice as a very occasional intruder here, out of curiosity and a tendency to waste time - a man...
I only wish I'd met a woman who'd been as lovely to me and as willing to give me everything as you are to him, and without any commitment! I was never so lucky!

Professor I do have issues, but I've worked damn hard this past year to deal with them. Which is why I left my last relationship. The name is just a joke because I really am crap, I just do it for fun :-)

Tuna, thats it exactly. If he said he felt something for me I would say I bloody knew it. Its just the way he is with me, its so easy. I dont think hes that good of an actor. I think hes just chicken, but I could be wrong, it wouldnt be the first time!

Also I havent really considered that he may be woreiwd about being rebound guy.

*worried

It's only been a few months. If he's as nice as you say he is, then what's the harm in continuing a little longer and seeing how things go?

Can't you just enjoy things for what they are without worrying about the future too much?

He sounds lovely. I don't think he's done anything wrong, he's been honest with you and treats you with respect.

I have to worry a bit about it, but I can try to rein it in a bit. I've always been a worrier, its not easy!

Hi crapartist,

I had problems trying to get dh to commit, I think sometimes men can't see what's under their noses. I got to the point where I felt like I was chasing him - I knew it was right, but he just couldn't see it He even told me that he couldn't see himself ending up with me. In the end I just backed off. I didn't call him for a couple of weeks and when he called me I was pretty reserved. During this time I convinced myself that this was the end so I spent a whole night composing a letter about how I felt so much for him but if my feelings weren't reciprocated then I was wasting my time and I wanted to call it a day.
Anyway, the day after I wrote the letter he called me (it was a long distance relationship) to tell me how much he missed me and basically it's been wonderful since then. He says now that that time made him realise exactly what I meant to him, and that he wanted me in his life.
We have been together almost 15 years now, and it's still wonderful Sometimes people just need a little nudge to make them see things how they really are.

My advice to you would be the same as a few of the other posters - to just enjoy it and have fun for now and see where it goes. I do think you should give yourself a time limit and then maybe try getting him to open up a little to see if he thinks there's a future. It sounds like a lovely relationship, and you sound happy to be with him, so just give it a little time. I didn't plan what happened with my dh, it just seemed like the right time to back off and maybe you'll get to that point too. I never played games with dh, I have always been up front and open about things and it really did pay off.

Good luck whatever happens

The beginning of a relationship is always like that. Even if he didn't mention the lack of commitment, you'd still be worrying if he liked you enough. It's always like that.

When you're in a long term commited relationship, you long for the initial excitement of does he or doesn't he like me. It seems exciting after you've been with someone for years.

Either way you look at it, we're fucked really

You need to look at your relationship history. Do you make a habit of coming on too strong, or being possessive , or wanting commitment quickly? If so, then what was the outcome of that?

You also need to remember that it's what men do not say that speaks volumes.

We all know about men who have silver tongues then disappear in a puff of smoke.

But just because yours isn't making big declarations to match your wants and needs, you think he doesn't care.

The facts are he is seeing you more now than he did at the start.
So- he likes you.

Stop wanting all your boxes ticked so quickly or TBH you will fuck this relationship up.

One final thought- did you meet him through a dating site or something where it was made 'clear' that you and him were looking for a FWB? If not, how did you meet and 'decide' that this was just sex?
The reason I ask is because ( having read your first post again) it seems that each of you wanted the same thing at the start- uncomplicated sex ( though I think that is a unicorn myself) - and now your position has changed. And you expect his to have too.

I just think you need to describe how you decided - in your own head or otherwise- that all you wanted was sex, yet within a few weeks you are asking if you are his potential girlfriend.

You see in many relationships, people meet with the hope that as well as great sex, the relationship will develop- and it's an unspoken but shared goal. What I'm saying is, did each of you explain without any ambiguity at the start that you just wanted FWB?

You all speak a lot of sense and I am listening. I've just been for a lovely run in the park and sat by the lake thinking about all your advice. I am going to take positive steps to slow down, relax and enjoy this whilst being aware that I'm not going to myself short either. Thank you all you lovely people