Update on EA

[faulkernegger]

I posted some weeks ago about DP's suspicious friendship, and even though we have talked about it (I've said I feel uncomfortable, children have noticed etc) it's still going on.
He has been attentive and loving, and when I asked if we were ok he looked me in the eye and said 'yes'. However, a few evenings ago about 11pm he took his phone into the loo. When he came out I challenged him - why on earth do you need to take your phone into the loo at 11 o'clock at night? to which he replied - I had it in my pocket on the way upstairs. Well he didn't - it had been on the bedside table. So I said - you;re not telling me the truth and I want you to think about why you're not telling the truth.
A couple of days later he took me aside and said he'd made a decision to step back from this woman, because I clearly thought that 'something' was going on. I felt so relieved.
But, having a gnawing feeling still, I did some checking on his mobile phone bill online ( about the only thing he's forgotten to change his password for) and he seems to have called her more often and for longer, since that conversation!

What do I do now? confront again and ask exactly HOW this is stepping back? or, as my sister says, back off, be sweetness and light and give him more time to end it.
I have been for an initial assessment at Relate to see of there's anything I can do about 'me' that will help the relationship, but I feel there's no point if his mind is elsewhere.
Help!

You're right to say that other people have husbands or partners who behave in a worse way and are more abusive. That doesn't make what your partner has done - and continues to do- in any way acceptable.

It's patently clear that your sole aim is to avoid separation- to you, to us , and to your partner. Therefore the chances of him stopping the music lessons are zero, because he knows full well that he can carry on seeing OW with no consequences - and seeing OW is more important to him than respecting your wishes. He knows that he can just step right over the boundaries that you've drawn, because you will keep redrawing them. He'll only stop marching over the boundaries when they are an exact fit for what he wants to do anyway.

That's a way of avoiding separation- but it means that you have to give up any notion of two-way respect and trust. No matter what he says about wanting to make the relationship work, his actions are making it absolutely clear that he feels he owes you no loyalty or respect. And I think that means you need to be very careful; he'll say what he needs to say to keep you sweet for now- he needs to preserve the status quo because OW isn't available right now. He's already proven that your needs count for nothing when set against preserving his romantic fantasy- if he decides that he wants to separate, maybe in a few months when he's got his plans sorted, there's no guarantee that he'll meet any of his obligations to you or the children.

Bearing that in mind, I think you might need to consider having a back-up plan in case he calls time on your relationship when he's ready.

It's patently clear that your sole aim is to avoid separation- to you, to us , and to your partner. Therefore the chances of him stopping the music lessons are zero, because he knows full well that he can carry on seeing OW with no consequences - and seeing OW is more important to him than respecting your wishes.

This. Absolutely this. It completely sums up the horrible situation. It's so unbelievably unfair on you, OP, but you're not ready to see it yet.

Sorry if my post sounded harsh, it's just that this entire thread has taken a 'softly softly' approach and the OP is still staying with him despite everything, so I wanted to try a different tactic to see if it might help.

Faulk, I want the best for you (believe it or not!) but staying with this man isn't that. It's a shame because you are such a lovely person and it's frustrating to see you being treated this badly, please stop letting him treat you this way.
Do you really want to be treated this way for the rest of your life? Because it won't get any better.

I'm sorry if my first post upsets or offends you, that was not my intention at all and it was my clearly misguided attempt of trying to get you to see this situation from a different perspective. If you were reading this thread would you advise the OP to stay with her husband whilst he continues to see the OW?

You are a very intelligent and lovely person, and you don't deserve this. Furthermore your asshat DH doesn't deserve you.

Dear God. yes, I feel judged.
How much detail do you all need?
Firstly, it was an emotional affair - DP does not like to call it that (I know, I know)
It was NOT physical - I absolutely and totally believe that. I have his email passwords and his phone bill access - there has been no contact in that way since 4th Sept to rearrange the lessons. he arrives at 5pm, she leaves at 5.15 to take other dcs somewhere else (cubs, cello etc). DP leaves at 5,30 taking the money she has left for him. So far, so good.
He says this arrangement is in a 'box' and is not going any further. In the counselling I disputed that there should even be a box.
He said that my threatening to leave was emotional blackmail ( yeah, and?) and that I wanted to force him to stop the lessons. "What else are you going to force me to do?" I just replied that I wasn't forcing him and had never forced him to do anything in 14 years together ( it's our anniversary today btw - I forgot until about 9pm)
He was totally on the defensive, but I think now that he's digging in just so that he doesn't lose the 'argument'.
I also said that if he gave up the lessons he would have my 100% commitment to the relationship, but that right now I was back to square one, and that I didn't believe he was committed because he was keeping the window open to OW. Then he went on about the box again.

Leaving would be very expensive. Is it possible to find temporary accommodation for me and 2 dcs? I wonder if I'd have to agree to rent somewhere for a year, and then find he was begging us to come back after a shorter time. What then? Would I get benefits straightaway? or have to wait ages for my application to be processed.
What on earth would I tell the children? We're leaving Daddy because he won't give up the music lessons. But mummy, it's only half an hour a week. How would I explain the rest of it? 'I want to sleep in my bed', 'how will I get to school from here?' 'Are you going to pick me up Mummy', 'I want daddy'.
It breaks my heart.

I'm tempted to change my FB status to 'it's complicated'. Too much???

Wine induced ramblings.

x-post stellar. good evening!

Gosh I've read this thread all the way through and I'm utterly confused!

You said he ticked all the boxes for an emotional affair and he apologised profusely, but now you say he doesn't agree it was an emotional affair.

What was he apologising for then?

This sounds like such an odd relationship. Several times you've said or implied that if you suggest anything directly, he'll refuse to do it. You said he wouldn't want you 'improving' him with the book you were reading, won't give up these lessons and now won't even call this an affair.

Aren't you exhausted having to rehearse everything you say to him so that you couch it in such oblique terms that he has to think everything is his idea?

Why does this man rule the roost so much and have so much power in your home?

Morning Faulk.

Is he still in the spare bedroom?

Hi again inthedusk.

In addition to his refusing your (entirely reasonable) request to stop teaching OW's son, I really don't like his script of "you're forcing me to do things" / feeling trapped. Paints you in a certain role and himself as the victim. Links to the script he had with OW (him doing his duty, but her really truly understanding him and so on). Puts pressure on you to ignore what's gone on - and is still going on, with the lessons/contact at least, even if nothing untoward.

And he's still minimising / won't admit his EA.

So his basic argument is that you are being unreasonable and that he won't comply with your demands.

Awful!

Well, obviously you don't have to explain to young children the complicated details of exactly why you've separated.

And, sorry if I've missed this, but why would you and the children have to be the ones to leave?

Why do you have to leave? Is this because he owns the property?

I am afraid that it is at times like this, that women discover that marriage is not a fuddy-duddy institution and is a lot more than 'just a piece of paper'.

'Living together' is a big fucking mistake. It lets immature men who do not want to commit, off the hook. It relieves them of the contractual obligations to be a big boy and man up with their responsibilities. [Women will invariably become mothers, and that instantly means becoming economically vulnerable].

(That is my view, and I am sticking to it).

He said that my threatening to leave was emotional blackmail ( yeah, and?) and that I wanted to force him to stop the lessons. "What else are you going to force me to do?" I just replied that I wasn't forcing him and had never forced him to do anything in 14 years together ( it's our anniversary today btw - I forgot until about 9pm)
He was totally on the defensive, but I think now that he's digging in just so that he doesn't lose the 'argument'.

He sounds truely ghastly and minimising everything, fgs dont be fooled or let him treat you like a fool, which btw he was doing.

Your kids will do fine, your DD probably already suspects, and its not a good lesson to teach her for when shes older, she'll end accepting the same shoddy treatment.

Well, it sounds exhausting.

With his twisting everything to make it seem reasonable to him and with your acceding to his twisting, I don't understand how any real communication is going on at all.

Why would you be leaving? Cheaper for him to get a bedsit.

Hi OP, It's obviously hugely unhelpful to judge or berate in this circumstance. I'm not totally sure you can reconcile the statements that you know who it will turn out and it will not be separation, and saying that you are prepared to leave. I think if you know you will not separate, he does too, and that gives him a very safe place to get any needs met inside or outside the relationship.

Simply put, you need to decide on a bottom line. Not ours, yours. You need to think about what that is and then to ensure that if it is broken, you leave. It sounds simple but many people find themselves trapped in a relationship that just crashed through bottom line after bottom line over and over until they have no idea who they are or what they stand for.

Well, what that tells you is that he is in denial about it.

It also tells you that he fears being controlled by women. Men who fear female control very often like to be the ones in control. They are not up for equality. Hence his not listening to you.

You deserve so much better. Good luck.

It's "emotional abuse" for you to threaten to leave?

That is such an manipulative thing to say.

I have always thought you were dealing with a self-indulgent, immature egotist who was way too nice to himself and took you for granted.

But that comment indicates that you are actually dealing with something a lot more sinister here.

Really think through the implications of that statement - they are pretty profound.

• you are not allowed to leave him no matter how he treats you, because you are abusing him if you have any expectations of fair treatment in your relationship

• you are a monstrous bully and he is just an innocent man who can't help how he feels about the woman he truly loves and knows that he should be with

• he is never and can never be wrong and any attempt by you to ever say that he is not behaving well is abusive, therefore he can do as he likes at all time

I used to think if you kicked him out he'd wake up.

Now I just hope that at some point you'll wake up. This is not a good man.

join - emotional blackmail, not abuse.
onefewer - yes, he likes to control things, he's very bossy and he doesn't listen/hear. This am he asked if I'd like a bacon sandwich, I said no thanks, 10 mins later 'here's your bacon sandwich', 'I said I didn't want one'. He ended up eating it, and he's trying to keep his weight down.
Interestingly, he has feelings of regret and sadness about a long ago exg, who he cheated on, and she sounds like a very strong woman. He was engaged to her, but didn't want to make that final commitment (and move to the USA, which he also misses). Lightbulbs going off there!
I've always thought of him as a kind of grown up Tigger - bouncing people all over the place.

:( Sorry you feel judged OP. I know it's hard when posters are one step ahead of you, but not actually in your position, living your day-to-day life.

And I don't want to scare you off either when these threads might be really useful, whether one day or now.

But where your partner is saying 'you are forcing me to stop', you do realise other men would be saying 'I'll do anything to make it up to you, I've given the lessons up,' or even the not-as-good 'oh god she caught me, I better give the lessons up if we're going to have any hope'.

It alarms me that he's trying to blame you for so much when he's the one who started distancing himself from the relationship.

It doesn't mean everyone here is saying you must LTB. I think many, myself included, were hoping once upon a time that he would drop the lessons without a moment's thought.

Emotional blackmail, emotional abuse... I don't think that changes anything really. He's trying to say that you are not allowed to draw any lines and must accept whatever treatment he dishes out.

At the moment, your actions are agreeing with him on that.

"I've always thought of him as a kind of grown up Tigger - bouncing people all over the place."

He sounds a lot less innocent and cute than that.

And the feelings of sadness and regret for long ago ex, now the whole "we should have been together" with this OW - does he actually value you and your relationship at all?

Where do you fit into his tragic story of doomed love affairs?

Interestingly, he has feelings of regret and sadness about a long ago exg, who he cheated on so it's not the first time he has had an inappropriate relationship with another woman outside his main relationship.

The more you type the worse he sounds.

You expect him to be different with you because?

You need some counselling of your own. ALONE You have all the baggage of your childhood (how fucking miserable do you think your sister is deep down) combined with a relationship with a man who seems to be on the path to being a serial cheat.

Why are you so scared of being on your own and having self esteem/worth than thinking being with this man who has zero respect for you and blames you for being the guilty party is better?

You are also showing your DC that women should put up and shut up and men can do what they like with no consideration of others.

This cycle will continue with them as it is what they think relationships should be.

Firstly, it was an emotional affair - DP does not like to call it that

I'm confused about this. Are you saying you don't think it was an emotional affair or just that you don't call it that because he doesn't like it.

I mean, if he was being physically violent, would you say, it's not domestic abuse, dp does not like to call it that?

The fact is, not only was it definitely and emotional affair, it still is because it's ongoing.

Just because neither of you want to admit that, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I know you say that it's difficult to leave. I have a suggestion for you. Stop the counselling, because he obviously isn't ready to listen anyway, let him go to the music lessons and stop checking up on him.

Hopefully, he will get more involved with the OW and it will get to the point where she is ready to leave her DH. Then your dp will move out and you and the children will be able to stay in the house.

That way you don't have to do anything except allow him to see her, which is pretty much what you are doing anyway. You just need to encourage it a bit, maybe ask him to run a few errands which would give him an excuse to be out and about for a bit. It's a win win situation.

I was in similar shoes to yours some years ago. I know that if dh had told me ho had feelings for this other person our relationship would have ended. Believe me, I adore dh and can't imagine my life without him in it but there is no way I could live with that.
I say that as mother of 3 who has been physically abused and physically cheated on in the past.
I decided that I was worth more than that - second best wasn't good enough for me. An emotional connection is just as devastating in my experience.

I'd give your partner more credit if he just admitted that he didn't give a toss about your feelings but he was going to indulge in his star crossed lover fantasy. But he is painting you as manipulative, controlling and trying to restrict how he lives his life. That really worries me. Your relationship should be worth more than a half hour lesson. It should be worth more than his feelings for her. They haven't gone away, not just like that.

I'm sorry you feel judged OP, fwiw I don't get the impression anyone is judging you, the vast majority of posters are on your side. They want for you what you want - in this case, your husband back & the OW gone.

He said that my threatening to leave was emotional blackmail ( yeah, and?) and that I wanted to force him to stop the lessons. "What else are you going to force me to do?" I just replied that I wasn't forcing him and had never forced him to do anything in 14 years together ( it's our anniversary today btw - I forgot until about 9pm)

His stopping the lessons is the minimum requirement to make this relationship work & he needs to accept that. He is the one emotionally blackmailing you by implying that you are 'forcing' him to give up the lessons as if you were a mother taking away a child's toy. He still doesn't seem to grasp that what he is doing is destroying his relationship.

he is digging just so he doesn't lose the 'argument'.

He's already lost the argument by behaving the way he has. The fact that he still, after all this time, cannot admit that suggests that he is living in a narcissistic bubble.

May I just point out that quite apart from the betrayal angle, from a professional pov, your husband continuing to teach the son of a woman he has been (is) emotionally involved with is totally unprofessional. The fact that he is (effectively) married makes it even worse. Even a single teacher with any integrity would have stopped teaching the son once the emotional involvement started & referred the son to a colleague. If either your husband or the boy's mother took this boy's musical development seriously they would not be mucking about. If your husband needs the money, surely it would be a lot cheaper to stop teaching the boy than risk having to rent a bedsit over it? When the son is older he is going to see that he was a pawn in an emotional game between his mother & music teacher. How do you think that will affect him??