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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Update on EA

865 replies

faulkernegger · 26/06/2013 13:53

I posted some weeks ago about DP's suspicious friendship, and even though we have talked about it (I've said I feel uncomfortable, children have noticed etc) it's still going on.
He has been attentive and loving, and when I asked if we were ok he looked me in the eye and said 'yes'. However, a few evenings ago about 11pm he took his phone into the loo. When he came out I challenged him - why on earth do you need to take your phone into the loo at 11 o'clock at night? to which he replied - I had it in my pocket on the way upstairs. Well he didn't - it had been on the bedside table. So I said - you;re not telling me the truth and I want you to think about why you're not telling the truth.
A couple of days later he took me aside and said he'd made a decision to step back from this woman, because I clearly thought that 'something' was going on. I felt so relieved.
But, having a gnawing feeling still, I did some checking on his mobile phone bill online ( about the only thing he's forgotten to change his password for) and he seems to have called her more often and for longer, since that conversation!

What do I do now? confront again and ask exactly HOW this is stepping back? or, as my sister says, back off, be sweetness and light and give him more time to end it.
I have been for an initial assessment at Relate to see of there's anything I can do about 'me' that will help the relationship, but I feel there's no point if his mind is elsewhere.
Help!

OP posts:
Fairenuff · 14/09/2013 16:12

Gosh, yes, you're right onefewer. Just a quick look at this list and I think he is definitely doing Lying, Lying by omission, Denial, Rationalisation (this is the music lessons), Minimisation, Diversion and Evasion. Oh and Feigning Innocence.

Lying: It is hard to tell if somebody is lying at the time they do it, although often the truth may be apparent later when it is too late. One way to minimize the chances of being lied to is to understand that some personality types (particularly psychopaths) are experts at the art of lying and cheating, doing it frequently, and often in subtle ways.

Lying by omission: This is a very subtle form of lying by withholding a significant amount of the truth. This technique is also used in propaganda.

Denial: Manipulator refuses to admit that he or she has done something wrong.

Rationalization: An excuse made by the manipulator for inappropriate behavior. Rationalization is closely related to spin.

Minimization: This is a type of denial coupled with rationalization. The manipulator asserts that his or her behavior is not as harmful or irresponsible as someone else was suggesting, for example saying that a taunt or insult was only a joke.

Selective inattention or selective attention: Manipulator refuses to pay attention to anything that may distract from his or her agenda, saying things like "I don't want to hear it".

Diversion: Manipulator not giving a straight answer to a straight question and instead being diversionary, steering the conversation onto another topic.

Evasion: Similar to diversion but giving irrelevant, rambling, vague responses, weasel words.

Covert intimidation: Manipulator throwing the victim onto the defensive by using veiled (subtle, indirect or implied) threats.

Guilt trip: A special kind of intimidation tactic. A manipulator suggests to the conscientious victim that he or she does not care enough, is too selfish or has it easy. This usually results in the victim feeling bad, keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious and submissive position.

Shaming: Manipulator uses sarcasm and put-downs to increase fear and self-doubt in the victim. Manipulators use this tactic to make others feel unworthy and therefore defer to them. Shaming tactics can be very subtle such as a fierce look or glance, unpleasant tone of voice, rhetorical comments, subtle sarcasm. Manipulators can make one feel ashamed for even daring to challenge them. It is an effective way to foster a sense of inadequacy in the victim.

Playing the victim role: Manipulator portrays him- or herself as a victim of circumstance or of someone else's behavior in order to gain pity, sympathy or evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. Caring and conscientious people cannot stand to see anyone suffering and the manipulator often finds it easy to play on sympathy to get cooperation.

Vilifying the victim: More than any other, this tactic is a powerful means of putting the victim on the defensive while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent of the manipulator.

Playing the servant role: Cloaking a self-serving agenda in guise of a service to a more noble cause, for example saying he is acting in a certain way for "obedience" and "service" to God or a similar authority figure.

Seduction: Manipulator uses charm, praise, flattery or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and give their trust and loyalty to him or her.

Projecting the blame (blaming others): Manipulator scapegoats in often subtle, hard-to-detect ways.

Feigning innocence: Manipulator tries to suggest that any harm done was unintentional or that they did not do something that they were accused of. Manipulator may put on a look of surprise or indignation. This tactic makes the victim question his or her own judgment and possibly his own sanity.

Feigning confusion: Manipulator tries to play dumb by pretending he or she does not know what the victim is talking about or is confused about an important issue brought to his attention.

Brandishing anger: Manipulator uses anger to brandish sufficient emotional intensity and rage to shock the victim into submission. The manipulator is not actually angry, he or she just puts on an act. He just wants what he wants and gets "angry" when denied.

Xales · 14/09/2013 16:15

I actually wouldn't make that call.

He really has been there - you feel like shit for checking up on him - it does nothing to repair the damage he has done to your relationship.

He hasn't been there - you tell him - he has a go at you checking up on him Hmm you feel like shit - you don't tell him - you know he is still a liar who doesn't give a fuck about you - you feel like shit.

I don't see that you gain anything from that situation.

Fairenuff · 14/09/2013 16:22

If he has been there, no harm done. No need to feel like shit for checking up, you need to check on him now to get to the truth.

If he hasn't been and he has a go at you for checking up on him you tell him 'You cheated on me, you no longer qualify for my unconditional trust. I shall check up as much as I like and, in future, it would be helpful if you didn't lie to me'.

YOU are not to blame for any of his behaviour. Hold you head up high x

FridaKarlov · 14/09/2013 19:15

I didn't break off my affair properly until I believed, 100%, that my partner would leave me. Looking back I gave very little thought into how he felt, because as far as I concerned I was the heroine in a terribly tragic romantic drama. I thought I could control the situation and have both men in my life.

I think you need to make serious moves to leave him. Because at the moment he's not caring how this has affected you. Being faced with the loss of his family is the only thing that's likely to get through- is he willing to church his whole life away for a fucking music lesson???

Jux · 14/09/2013 19:54

If he has been to the osteopath, then he hasn't lied about it. Good.
If he hasn't been, then you can be more sure of your position. Good.

What have you got to lose?

intheduskwiththelightbehindher · 14/09/2013 22:20

Anybody know anything about Lee Baucom?

onefewernow · 15/09/2013 00:36

Faulk, he is a quack. Every part of his website grandstands questions to which the answer is in his 'pay now' book.

onefewernow · 15/09/2013 00:37

It is similar to Michele Weiner Davies, except she is realistic about affairs.

RumpledClothes · 15/09/2013 01:07

I've not heard of him but have googled him and it does not look good. You deserve to be loved and cherished for who you are.

Do you want to spend your life feeling like this? Do you want to spend you life twisting yourself and contorting your very being in the hope of keeping him? That's not love and it will not make you feel good, only worse and worse.

I just want to come and give you a massive hug and spend a nice evening eating lots of chocolate and drinking too much wine while slagging off cuntychops men, then we'd get dolled up and go and have a laugh.

You love him and you want this relationship to continue, that much is clear. We are pushing the chuck him out line, start legal proceedings etc not because we are desperate for you to split but because it is the only chance of saving your relationship. From your posts it sound like he has been taking you for granted for a long time, good ole Faulk will always be there, why make an effort, even worse is that you seem to have even less respect for yourself than he does.

You've dragged this out how long with how much pain and yet he is still refusing to change. You have to put a stop to it if you want to save it, you stated your line and he has danced a jig on it while laughing in your face. Just tell him now NO. No more negotiation, nor more discussion, IT IS OVER. Even if he promises to give up the lessons it is too little to late. You should not be trying to earn him back he should be desperately trying to earn you. You are worth more you are not a second place decision.

Let him prove he is worthy of a second chance, let him grovel at your feet and beg forgiveness, only then is he worth your time.

At the moment your self esteem sounds like its not just on the floor it's in bloody Australia and it is still having a shit time. If you want to ignore the LTB and life ain't all perfect messages then so be it, but what harm can ever be done by improving your self esteem and building your life? If you are not ready to start Operation LTB then please start Operation FaulkRocks.

liquidstate · 15/09/2013 09:09

Brilliantly put rumpleclothes!

Do please start thinking of yourself. He is not thinking of you at all. At the moment you are desperately unhappy and he is ignoring you.

Make him sit up and take notice. Who knows it may work out for you both? It may not. You won't find out by reading quack books.

Also I believe you owe it to your children to show your strength.

intheduskwiththelightbehindher · 15/09/2013 09:50

rumple - you made me laugh with the cuntychops comment.
I think DP is trying;today he made me breakfast in bed - nice thought (but it wasn't what I would have chosen - am I being churlish?)
Now he's taken ds swimming and rung me twice to explain why they might be late back. He's talking about the future - pensions, where we might live etc and being cheerful and considerate. (btw he was at the osteo - I found the receipt).
I am being polite, not sulking, not crying.
I am looking forward to counselling tomorrow - I know some people are sceptical, I think I'll know one way or the other what happens next.

lazarusb · 15/09/2013 10:44

Of course you aren't being churlish and him 'trying' - I'm sorry but until he stops those lessons I can't see what his so-called efforts will achieve to change anything in your relationship. Please stop appreciating his minimal gestures when he won't carry out the one that really counts.

I hope you do find the counselling useful but since he doesn't seem to believe he's done anything wrong I'm not sure how much progress will be made.

I left an abusive relationship with a 5 year old ds by the way. It wasn't easy but I never once looked back. Could he afford to continue living in your home by himself? I think he needs to be really worried he will lose you. Tell him you're looking into benefits because you're considering taking the children and leaving. No more tabs open on the computer....make sure he knows what's at stake. My bet is he'll tell you you're overreacting/silly/being a drama queen.

Nothing has changed for him - he didn't stop having feelings for her during your holiday. He DID expect you to go away, have a nice time and return to the status quo (as I said at the time). Which is exactly what he's done. He is unbelievably selfish and cruel. You sound far too nice for your own good.

Xales · 15/09/2013 11:06

It's not churlish. He is doing anything and everything apart from the one thing you have asked him to do to prove you mean more to him than this other woman. Spend time with her.

Every time he does something that should be nice in a normal relationship, all the calls he is making to tell you where he is every 30 seconds, you wanting to check up to make sure where he says he was, they are all nails in the coffin of your relationship because he is still blatantly without any care for you seeing her every week.

It is meaningless and you know it.

RinseAndRepeat · 15/09/2013 11:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fairenuff · 15/09/2013 12:12

All these 'lovely' gestures have come about since he saw you looking at tax credits and estate agents. See, what happens when you show him you mean it? He is starting to worry because now, it might affect him.

As long as you were just complaining but not doing anything about it, he could carry on the affair in peace. But now he sees that there is a real risk to his comfort, he has decided to try and be nice to you.

Not to stop seeing her, oh no, just to be nice enough to make you back off and scuttle back to where you belong - looking after his house and his child.

When you tell him to leave he will cry. He will promise to give up the music lessons and never see her again. He will declare his love for you and beg you to take him back. It happens time and time again in these sorts of situations.

But until then he will keep seeing her.

JoinYourPlayfellows · 15/09/2013 13:27

Faire is completely right.

It's actually pretty arrogant for him to be talking so complacently about pensions and the future, because it is basically just an attempt to steamroller you out of making any decisions that inconvenience him.

"When you tell him to leave he will cry. He will promise to give up the music lessons and never see her again. He will declare his love for you and beg you to take him back. It happens time and time again in these sorts of situations.

But until then he will keep seeing her."

Yes, and the longer you let this bullshit continue, the more damage is being done to your relationship.

In a way, you are not giving him a chance to prove himself.

You are allowing him to carry on with his fantasy delusion of himself as the tragic thwarted lover who can't have what he really wants but is honourable and true to his homely wife that he will make do with.

And the longer he does, and the more disconnected you feel from him, the harder it will be for you to come back from this whenever he does decide to pull his head out of his arse.

You don't owe HIM anything. But if you want to save your relationship, I think you owe it to yourself not to let this go on for too much longer.

onefewernow · 15/09/2013 14:54

They are just so transparent, and follow the same pattern.

When I had moved out of the bedroom, and had reached the stage where I damn well knew there were OW involved and he wouldn't admit it, I remember going to a work meeting nicely dressed up, and in a new dress. Unusually for that time, he texted me with nice comments on it.

I responded , saying thank you for that, but its going to take more than that to change the situation we are in.

He went wild. By the time I had opened my laptop at the meeting, there was an essay length ranting email, both barrels, denying all, and criticising me.

I ignored.

Within a month he was facing me across the table, admitting all, crying, promising the earth, handing over passwords etcetera. Admittedly a long and stressful month, but I held my nerve, and was stronger than him, once I saw the game.

Faulk/ ITDWLO, you just have to keep going . This sucking up, hinting at a glorious future, followed by tantrums, is just hot air. He knows what he is doing, and he is manipulating you. Rise above it.

Fairenuff · 15/09/2013 15:07

It's actually very insulting Faulk

You: 'You have crossed a line. This in unacceptable to me. Your refusal to stop the music lessons is a deal breaker. I want you to move out'.

Him: 'We really should have a look at our pensions and plan for our old age together'.

He is completely ignoring you. It's as if you haven't spoken. Doesn't that make you angry?

ProphetOfDoom · 15/09/2013 16:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tessa6 · 15/09/2013 16:55

It's weird this, when someone has an affair there's this mistaken understanding that forms in the betrayed's mind that if the cheater is nice to them it makes things better. It means they've 'chosen' them. All he is doing is upping his game just enough (breakfast in bed? That's what a child does on mothers day) JUST ENOUGH for you not to leave him.

Can you see that the agenda is to keep things the same for him? for him to just have everything he wants? Which is a home, family you and all the shit you do for him and his OW as well?

So he will do just enough to maintain that status quo. It has nothing to do with you. nothing to do with his feelings for you. It is to do with preserving his world the way he likes it. The ONLY thing that will change that and shock him is if he can not have that world. if it's not available to him. You have said that. That it's not acceptable as a state of affairs. He has ignored you. He has simply won.

Fairenuff · 15/09/2013 18:00

He's just come in and offered to supervise ds and 2 friends while I go out. I don't necessarily want to go out, but feel I ought to, to show I appreciate his gesture!

today he made me breakfast in bed - nice thought (but it wasn't what I would have chosen - am I being churlish?)

Look at what he's doing Faulk

Guilt trip: A special kind of intimidation tactic. A manipulator suggests to the conscientious victim that he or she does not care enough, is too selfish or has it easy. This usually results in the victim feeling bad, keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious and submissive position.

It doesn't matter to him what you want. He will do what he wants and expect you to be grateful for it. He knows what you want, you have told him - stop the music lessons and stop seeing that woman - but, no he won't do that.

I also think he has another agenda here. Be very careful. He knows that he is going to counselling tomorrow and look what he can say. Look at all the things he is doing for his ungrateful wife. Being a wonderful father, spending time with his son, waiting on his wife hand and foot. What more does she want?

He is going to try and make you look unreasonable. You will have to use the broken record. I don't want you to wait on me I want you to give up the music lesson and stop seeing her. I don't want you to give me treats, I don't want you to give me anything except the one thing I have asked for.

lazarusb · 15/09/2013 18:13

I just want to make it clear - making breakfast and looking after his own child doesn't make him anything special. It's a normal part of being a partner and father. Please don't let him get away with thinking he's some kind of hero for doing that.

ProphetOfDoom · 15/09/2013 20:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Wellwobbly · 15/09/2013 20:16

Ooooh, Tessa, you are sharp!

Faulk, pay attention:

'Can you see that the agenda is to keep things the same for him? for him to just have everything he wants? Which is a home, family you and all the shit you do for him and his OW as well?

So he will do just enough to maintain that status quo. It has nothing to do with you. nothing to do with his feelings for you. It is to do with preserving his world the way he likes it.'

Or as chumplady.com pithily puts it, 'the unified theory of cake'.

youvegotmail · 15/09/2013 20:47

Got to admit it's a bit odd and insulting that he thinks he can do nice things and make it better... when the one thing you want, he won't do.

As for planning pensions etc - come ON! He's seen you looking at benefits and estate agents, he's testing your reaction. Your reaction was to be pleased with him, therefore showing him that you are not really invested in any idea of moving on from him whatsoever. He's quite smart hun, and he's playing you.

You've asked him for ONE THING. He refuses. Until he agrees, there should be no other discussion and every nice thing he does or every conversation you have should come back to, 'That was a nice breakfast in bed and I appreciate it but it doesn't change anything whilst you continue to see the woman you betrayed our marriage with' and 'I'm glad you're looking into pensions but we don't have a future together whilst you refuse to put my feelings ahead of your own and those of another woman and stop those lessons'. He's relying on you to be polite and 'nice' and not keep pushing this.