Update on EA

[faulkernegger]

I posted some weeks ago about DP's suspicious friendship, and even though we have talked about it (I've said I feel uncomfortable, children have noticed etc) it's still going on.
He has been attentive and loving, and when I asked if we were ok he looked me in the eye and said 'yes'. However, a few evenings ago about 11pm he took his phone into the loo. When he came out I challenged him - why on earth do you need to take your phone into the loo at 11 o'clock at night? to which he replied - I had it in my pocket on the way upstairs. Well he didn't - it had been on the bedside table. So I said - you;re not telling me the truth and I want you to think about why you're not telling the truth.
A couple of days later he took me aside and said he'd made a decision to step back from this woman, because I clearly thought that 'something' was going on. I felt so relieved.
But, having a gnawing feeling still, I did some checking on his mobile phone bill online ( about the only thing he's forgotten to change his password for) and he seems to have called her more often and for longer, since that conversation!

What do I do now? confront again and ask exactly HOW this is stepping back? or, as my sister says, back off, be sweetness and light and give him more time to end it.
I have been for an initial assessment at Relate to see of there's anything I can do about 'me' that will help the relationship, but I feel there's no point if his mind is elsewhere.
Help!

Charbon may not know you personally, but she does know what she is talking about. She is right when she says that your approach is sabotaging any chance of saving the relationship.

The suggestion of addressing your boundaries is a good one - you are letting him treat you like shit and he is still getting away with it. No wonder he does not want to fight for you

Are you still doing his chores - washing, shopping, cooking etc?

Faulk - I hope the counselling goes well, but I can see Charbons POV. Unless you get a counsellor who understands what you want to say rather than what he/she wants to delve into, you will get nowhere.

Really, he needs to understand that he has to fight to get you back. At the moment he doesn;t even know that there is anything to fight for (as you are still there,. still being wifey, still accepting the music lessons...and the compliments about your weight )

What do you think you will gain from counselling?

He is not going to start respecting or caring for you or your children.

Unless you have massively over stated what you have said to him on here he knows. He just doesnt care. Another person isn't going to change that.

He quite rightly knew you were bluffing about him going. He took your bluff and went with it. End result he still is doing what he wants while you cook, clean and play little wife.

If you were serious this was a deal breaker you would get the call rolling to get him out. You are not so you won't.

Your children are already upset by this situation they have told you they are. Ignore this and teach them that this is how relationships should be.

*ball rolling

Good luck with the counselling. He may sabotage or undermine it, so try to ensure he doesn't. I do hope it improves things for you.

I do think that if he is utterly intransigent about continuing the lessons, and if you also want to continue the marriage, then you have to insist that the lessons take place somewhere other than her home and that she isn't present. Your home, in other words, with child coming into and onto your property alone. If she brings him, she stays outside.

You need to give him a straight choice, faulk. Either Option 1 - he goes NC, stops lessons, stops texting/calling/emailing/going on bike rides with her; or Option 2 you split up, you move out with the dc and he becomes a weekend dad.

Option 3 - where he carries on how he is, and you carry on doing what you're doing (ie STFU) is not an option.

Otherwise you are damaging your own self-esteem (already low, I'm guessing), you are eroding his respect for you, and you will ultimately find your dc's respect for you is also reduced. Do you have a son? Are you really telling him that he can treat the mother of his children, his life-partner, like this and she should accept it - no, allow it? How about your dd? Would you want her to accept this life, sit in the corner whilst her DP has an EA with another woman, and STFU about it?

Really sorry, faulk, but give him a straight choice. Her and her family, OR you and yours. No Option 3! You may think the relationship is worth saving - does he? He is not doing much to help save it, is he?

Charbon's post was very thoughtful -- don't dismiss it out of hand.

The only question here, as captainmummy says, is whether the TWO of you think this relationship is worth saving, because right now it seems you are planning to slog and slog and compromise to death while he rides roughshod over your (and your poor children's) emotions.

:(

I cant add anything to what has already been said really, apart from one more unanimous opinion.

Heaven only knows what it will take for you gain back some of your self respect. I wish you luck and urge you to come back when you are ready.

I'm sorry to hear he wont stop the lessons, Faulk, altho I guessed that's what was going on.

May I ask what justification he gives for this? How can he possibly justify continuing the lessons, after his emotional infidelity and when they are causing you so much upset.

I hope you are ok and managing to keep your self respect.

"I'm so sorry, but the way you're dealing with this is actually sabotaging the relationship, not saving it. "

Faulk, please, please please PLEASE listen to us. I did what you did (whining and moaning - but carrying on like normal) and got myself 5 years of humiliation as a result. I now don't have a relationship and it is BETTER than the disrespect, promise.

Mumsnet told me too!

Please listen to Charbon. As I am sure you can tell, she is qualified...

Did you get that, Faulk? Charbon is QUALIFIED. Hint, hint. You are getting sound advice for free.

" find a good therapist who understands infidelity, but they are thin on the ground and there are rather more of the 'let's not talk about the OW, let's talk about your relationship' kind, because that's safe and familiar territory, even if the dynamic between the couple was never the main issue."

Charbon - this is such an important issue. Could you say more? If a couple presents to an experienced counsellor, where one is distressed and the other is removed disrespectful and withdrawn [and we all know what that means, don't we MN!]

• what does that good therapist address? What happens?

I think I have got quite far in my couples therapy. Particularly the second time, where I was over the shock and more resistent to possible empty promises .

The reasons are complex but mainly:

I had a bottom line

I wasn't afraid to rock the boat and bring things up twice if I didn't think they were bottomed out

He knew I was considering my options and not afraid to leave, and had discussed it with the kids

I had read a lot and he hasn't bothered, so understood him better than he me

H was pretty ready to look at his own past issues and consider their impact on the present

We were lucky to have an older male counsellor who was tough, but for whom H had heaps of respect.

The willingness to leave on my part and the willingness to work on his issues on his part were crucial, I think.

So my take on it is that counselling can potentially help, but only if a myriad of particular conditions are in play. It is a bad sign for the OP that her H is not at least anxious to listen to her, given his affair has been rumbled. To promise to stop, then phone OW even more, then refuse to stop the lessons in pretty poor. It likely shows he thinks he does not have to listen to Faulks viewpoint, because there will be no consequences which will discomfort him.

Poor you Faulk. You aren't the first to try this strategy. A few of us have.I think you will move beyond it, but you have chosen a very tough route, and it may well not be a good gamble. But please don't go away, whatever you decide.

Oh Faulk this story just gets sadder and sadder. You asked him to stop the lessons and he refused. You told him that this was a dealbreaker and asked him to move out. He refused.

And then you just sort of said, 'oh, okay' in a small voice and shuffled off

Do you remember an ad on tv years ago where a little ant wanted to get past a polar bear and said 'excuse me' in a tiny little voice. The bear didn't move. After a few tries, the ant walked away.

But then it came back with a whole army of ants and they all shouted together 'EXCUSE ME' and the bear leapt into the air and got out of the way. That's what this situation reminds me of. You are one small voice and you are being ignored.

You need to get some big guns on your side. You've got us, go and see a solicitor and find out where you stand. Get some good financial advice, look into what benefits you'd be entitled to. Talk to your family and friends and get this affair into the open. When you go to counselling you need to be like a dog at a bone. Do not get sidetracked. Get him to explain to the counsellor why he won't stop the lessons. This is really important because there is no way he can justify it and you will receive validation which, in turn, will help you feel stronger and ready to tackle the other issues.

Find your voice faulk it's time to use it x

PS thanks for keeping us updated. I know it's difficult for you because we don't tell you what you want to hear but we really do have your best interests at heart.

I am listening. It's very very challenging for me to hear what you're all saying, but I am listening.
Has anyone on here left home with the kids? I have considered it, but money is so tight - and places to rent round here are so expensive. We need our combined wages to keep our heads above water where we are. Even if it was for a little while to give him a shock, and me some space, I don't know how I could afford it?
What's the first step?

It would be easier to get a court order for him to leave your house. I'm no expert but as I understand it, in the case of a separation, the children are entitled to stay in the house. So, whoever is the main carer gets to stay with them.

The thing is faulk, if you find out all this and then tell him as if this is what you intend to do, the shock of it might be the thing that snaps him out of this fantasy life he is leading.

He might start to take you seriously and start to really listen to what you're saying. At the moment he's just waiting for your mouth to stop moving so he can get on with pleasing himself. He's not listening to you, let alone really thinking about what you mean.

I'm so sorry this situation is ongoing, he is being a grade A git.

As a first step get legal advice, tell him it is over and he as is refusing to move he is in the spare room until you know where you stand legally, make it clear the only reason you are sharing the same airspace is because you are don't want to make the children homeless, you care about them even when he doesn't. Don't discuss anything more with him as it has got you nowhere. Don't let him get up tomorrow and pretend all is ok, no cooking, cleaning, washing, you take care of yourself and the children only. Use the broken record technique when he tries to discuss things, keep repeating that he knew where your line was, has repeatedly stepped over it and therefore nothing to discuss, you're finished.

Do you have family you could go to?

I don't think your relationship is over (necessarily) but I do think it's over unless he gets a good, sharp shock and changes his behaviour and attitude significantly... as in, saying 'I'm sorry, I was totally in the wrong, I've done an awful thing, I've really hurt you and I hate myself for that, I'll do whatever it takes to make this right'.

I can't think of a way aside from leaving him that you can achieve this.

Why is he continuing to teach the lessons though? Genuinely don't get it - unless he's openly saying that he wants to keep seeing the OW?

youvegot -I don't think it's over, but he has not (yet) said 'I'm sorry, I was totally in the wrong, I've done an awful thing, I've really hurt you and I hate myself for that, I'll do whatever it takes to make this right'.

This. It's the main thing I want.
For a man who talks a lot (lots of 3 legged donkeys round here), he's had trouble articulating anything about this situation unless I bring it up.
He's out early tomorrow, teaching till 1pm. Might take ds flat hunting. Not sure if the DCs should be 'told' anything yet.
Don't know why the lessons are continuing - he kept saying 'it's different this time'. I haven't asked in what way - does he mean that this time he can go and teach and not get involved in unprofessional contact???
No answer is satisfactory imo.
Sorry, I'm taking the opportunity to ramble - I can see him practising in his music room.

Here's my gut instinct:

He's not sorry and he doesn't think he was totally in the wrong. He does not think he's done an awful thing and because he's in such abject denial he does not think he's hurt you, as in his head it's just pure, thwarted romance, and he hasn't done 'anything wrong'. He doesn't feel he has any making up to do.

I think that this is because you 'found out', you cut it short ('You've got me cornered') and you spoiled his fun. He was not ready to move on and emotionally he is still invested in this person, even if the contact is not ongoing. He's just NOT in that place where he's sorry for what he's done and wants to make it up to you, he's actually a man who's interested and involved in someone else and then his partner has come along and spoiled the fun.

That's why he's hanging onto the lesson - because it's the one thing he feels he can validly deny you, the one contact he can have with her that - because it involves the child - is technically not contact with the OW.

He's therefore not in the right place to fix your relationship. Sorry. :( He NEEDS a shock, not you to roll over and allow this to happen. It makes me feel sick for you that he walked out the house to that lesson again this week. How could he do that and feel ok about it?

Do you normally have such trouble communicating about difficult things? It seems you're both avoiding it, talking around it. Why not write it down? It's like you're a bit scared of him/each other or both quite repressed.

he kept saying 'it's different this time'. I haven't asked in what way - does he mean that this time he can go and teach and not get involved in unprofessional contact???

The point is it doesn't matter what he means. It's irrelevant. You have told him if he carries on with the lessons you will have to separate.

And he has chosen to carry on. Tell the counsellor that, without going to the whys and wherefores and ask him to explain himself.