Am I right to be cross at him?

[RaRaZ]

I don't know if I'm being reasonable or over-reacting, but I'm mad at my partner right now....

I was in A&E today and got confirmed as having a MC - basically, there's no hope any more and it's gone. It's very early days (4-5 weeks I think), but we were trying and I'm very sad about it. I'm also in a lot of pain and can barely walk even after codeine and hours in bed with a hot water bottle.

My partner knows about this...but is still down the pub with his friend at this time, with no sign of coming home any time soon. I didn't mind him going, but he met her at 5pm....and the original plan was that he'd be done by 8.30 or 9. Obviously he's still there and is expecting me to come and pick him up (didn't take enough money for a taxi, etc), even though he knows the state I'm in and I've been asking for an hour and a half when he'll done. Still no answer, but I did just get accused of being a grumpy bitch. Is it really that unreasonable to not want to drive (10-15 miles!) at this time of night to collect a drunk boyfriend who's gone back on our agreement when I've had a fuckin horrible day and I'm in shitloads of pain and just wanna cry??? He seems to think it is....but I'd never do this to him. Help?

Perhaps the reason the DP acts differently when he spends time with this woman friend, compared to with his other friends, is he is not shagging his other friends?

vivacia She might have just wanted to go to bed but he still ought to have been there with her. He could have watched telly or anything but she needed support. I bet she's never needed it more in her life and he's out getting wankered? That's just not right.

OP I'm not going to tell you your partner is cheating on you, but I think you are being naive to think it's impossible that he would ever sleep with this woman (at least at some point over the years) simply because she's 'fat and slutty' as you've basically said.

I could give you many examples but let this one do. Many years ago I was part of a very extended social circle, and one of the women in it was a lot like the woman you've described overweight, not very attractive, had slept with a lot of guys, not very pleasant personality, etc. Most of the guys in this group all normal, decent-looking, 'good catch' type of guys -- slagged her off all the time, sometimes even to her face practically. And yet, I kid you not, at least half of them had at one point or another hooked up with her, even the ones with girlfriends.

I can't explain it, I'm not sure they could either. Alcohol had something to do with it. Maybe for some of them it was a kind of power thing. I don't know.

But this is not the only case where I have seen men say nasty things about a woman and then shag her anyway. I'm sorry but I really think you're naive to think her appearance would make such a difference.

Not to mention, what does it say if your confidence in him is based on her apparent undesirability? He should be able to hang out with even beautiful and virtuous women and not cheat.

Yes, people should be allowed to make stupid mistakes. But I suspect you are not having the full story here, I'm sorry. It does not make sense that on the one hand he tells you how nasty she is, but on the other she has this 'hold' over him, as you put it.

RaRaZ,
I hope you are feeling better.
Your experience of your mc, as someone previously said up thread, Real Life, and your partner's reaction/behavior during that event has led to this "discovery" about the nature of the character of your partner, as well as something about your own character.

From years long participation on the Stately Homes thread (have name changed), and personal experience, the discovery can come as a shock and take some time to digest/process.

I agree with the other posters who believe your partner is carrying on a simultaneous relationship with the pub buddy, making negative portraits of each of you to the other. I can imagine his delight in sitting back to enjoy the ensuing entertainment. I am for you. So he has dumped her (he says/she says...placating lip service if you ask me)...now don't let him out of your sight and see how quickly he becomes annoyed with you just wanting to be with him.

Great post from stooshe. Regarding your partner, RaRaZ, a phrase comes to mind. He is "having his cake and eating it, too".

I mentioned your character, RaRaZ. It appears from your posts that you are completely desperate to be with this man. Your self esteem was low when you started with him, and it is going to go even lower when the events of the past few days has had a chance to sink in. Please do not ever be that desperate to be with a man...this is why he thinks he can run this game at your expense.

Offred : I've met his friend, though only once, and I also have her on FB (yes, I know.... Now well and truly blocked), and have other mutual friends/acquaintances, so I know enough about the way she lives her life. That's not in doubt. She had never been unpleasant to me before, so DP wasn't exactly 'keeping' a friend who was nasty to me. I'd told him she made me uncomfortable and I had a 'bad feeling' about her, but I couldn't explain why beyond that I didn't think she was trustworthy and I didn't think she valued their friendship. Turns out I've been proved right, but they've been friends for a very long time and I can see why he struggled to accept that with little basis. He's now told her he won't see her again, and I think he genuinely doesn't care if he never claps eyes on her again.

Re not being able to sleep if I had to pick DP up, not really true - I was home by about 1600 and the plan was to get him at 2100, so I had getting on for five hours...

BeCool and Jengr : I feel that this is starting to get a bit nasty... I am as sure as I can be without actually BEING my DP that he is not, and never has been, shagging his friend.

DreamingBohemian : I didn't mean that he wouldn't sleep with her purely because she's overweight and slutty. I know exactly what you mean by what happened in your circle of friends, and yeah, I'm very aware that it happens - this was just one thing that makes me think he never would. OP is a pretty good-looking guy (yeah yeah, obv I'm gonna think that, but I do see women staring and drooling at him all over the place and I know that a lot of other women (incl this friend) find him attractive) and he certainly wouldn't struggle to find another woman if he wanted one. His friend isn't remotely what he goes for, and there's no reason why he would 'lower' himself to that when he could easily pick up someone he actually found attractive. That said, I know I can trust him with other women. He finds it funny when women (or men) flirt with him and he's rather bemused by it. That doesn't prove anything in itself, I know, but I know he wouldn't cheat. It's just not in his nature and he gets more than enough sex to satisfy him right here at home.

Andtheband... : I doubt he'd get sick of my company as we spend a hell of a lot of time together anyway. He's not generally that social so not seeing this friend will make such a minimal difference to the time we are apart that it's essentially no difference at all. He didn't see her for six months or more before the night in Q as she was away - and we were wonderfully close and happy then.

Re my being desperate, I don't think so. I know I could go out and find somebody else if I wanted to...but that's the thing, I don't. We've been perfect together ever since we got together and we've always said we should have done it years ago. I think relationships sometimes need work, and I don't wanna throw it all away for this. Changes have to be made, yes, and they have been. He knows that he won't get another chance, and I don't think he'll blow it.

No, you have every right to be cross, furious more like. Poor you :( Chin up babe

I refuse to understand it because I can't accept it....he's never been anything but perfect before, and he's apologised and is trying his best to make it right. I said he could go out and we both knew he'd have been no use to me had he come home as I just went home and slept for hours. The problem started when he was difficult about coming home, but I know he was a bit drunk by that point and I know that his friend was twisting everything and making it seem like I was being unreasonable. Yeah, he should have known better and yeah it's his fault, but it's not normal/usual/typical for him to behave like that at all, and he has done his best to rectify it. I don't want to throw away everything we've got on one stupid night. We all do stupid things sometimes.

There's stupid and there's stupid. Though I don't think that's the best word.

OP - couple of questions - How old are you both, and do you have any family or close friends to give their perspective?

He sounds pretty young and immature to me (I assume I am old enough to be your mother) and whether he was 'any use to you' or not, he should have stayed home when you were going through your mc. (I'm sorry for your loss). Just him being downstairs and 'on call' would have been a comfort for you.
His behaviour towards you when he was out was hideous and I hope he's thoroughly ashamed. And that is nothing to do with his 'former' friend.

I think you need to take the next stage of your relationship very slowly. Make sure he really has grown up before you have a baby with him. Or you'll be in the same situation again, but things will be even harder.

I never said anything about him shagging his friend.

"he was at fault to drink too much and let himsel be influenced by his friend to the point that he forget what was important and failed to act as he normally would".
"I still haven't got an answer as to why this friend can manipulate his behaviour so much - and I know some of you say it's not her fault at all, but I've seen him get drunk with plenty of other people and not once has he strayed from being DP".
"with her he seems to become another person"

RaRaz I was not being nasty - just responding to many of your comments/descriptions of his relationship with this woman, some of which I've quoted above.

I'm really sorry if you feel that I've been nasty too. I didn't mean to come across that way.

My point has never been about who he was with, just that he wasn't supporting you when you needed him the most.

Yes, that explains a lot. He isn't some prize because he is good looking.

A good looking man who treats you badly is not worth it.

He is treating you badly. You can choose to stay but please at least see that he leaves much to be desired.

It isnt ok to have your gf who is mis carrying your baby picking you up from a pub trip you decided to go on, you would have to have no soul to do that to someone you stated love for, no soul...

I had a bf like that, good looking and "found it funny" when people flirted with him, had a high sex drive, "got enough at home" and could have his pick of women or men who'd throw themselves at him whenever.

I now see he was very sexually abusive right from the start of our relationship to me and others. During my relationship with him he selected cheating partners by vulnerability; they included a 14 year old, a threesome with two 13 year old best friends, girls with low self esteem including many extremely overweight and very unattractive girls who often had poor hygiene. He also did almost exactly what your p did to you here after actually literally forcing me to have an abortion.

Yes there are differences, yes your relationship is yours and mine was mine but you cannot avoid the fact that he should never have gone to the pub, should never have expected you pick him up and should not need or be being told by you to cut off a friendship with this woman.

I might add I had no clue about the extent of what he was doing and I am still finding out now 8-10 years later...

I deludedly would have also proclaimed that he despises cheating and I didn't think he would do it around a year in to the relationship.

Nannyogg I'm 24. He's slightly younger than me, 23. I don't have a very good relationship with my parents at the moment, and I certainly wouldn't involve them in this. His mam's been brilliant with everything that's happened over the last few months though.

Offred : I'm really sorry that that happened to you - AND that you felt you needed to bring it up here; I'm sure it's not an easy thing to talk about. You're scaring me now :-/

Is it really that stupid to give him another chance? I feel like I've got things a bit straighter in my head now and I know we've had a damn good talk and got things cleared up between us. I think we've 'reset' things if you like and I want to give it another go - and he's desperate not to lose me. I know my relationship and I think we can make it work....but at the same time, it worries me greatly that you're all sending out hideous warnings. You're blatantly intelligent people with life experience - or you likely wouldn't be on here for a start! - and I bet many of you are older and more experienced in relationships than me. Obviously I know DP and you don't...but you all seem so sure of what you're saying that I can't help wonder that you've already got something figured out that I haven't. Haven't felt like so much of a hopeless teenager in years! :-/

Offred has, I fear, nailed it.

RaRaZ where to start?

This man has effectively set a trap, a test. To see what he can get away with.

Fucking off to another woman, repeatedly, when you were losing a baby is about the biggest thing ever. You HAVE to be able to see this?

As for 'throwing it all away' comment... throw what? a YEAR? That's NOTHING in the scheme of things.

It takes on average 18m to 2yrs for a domestic abuser to show their true colours, so anytime less than this, you have literally NO clue of who and what you're dealing with.

I'm not explicitly saying he is, but we none of us can say he's not. With your background, that actually increases, not decreases the odds of that happening.

Putting abuser theory to one side, you only need to spend a WEEK on our beloved Relationships thread to see women married for 5, 10, 15, 20+ years swear on their own heads that their H would never ever stray, and they wind up wrong.

They most of them say, he gets enough at home too. Sex or lack of it is nothing to do with fidelity at times, it's to do with attitude to Sex in the first place.

you are thinking you've made some kind of 'investment' in a relationship. That's the biggest mistake anyone ever makes. There is no investment, there's no 'yeild', no return.

You have to be ready, willing and able to walk away for unforgivable acts. You haven't and you are letting your BOYFRIEND get away with this.

He's not a DP, he's a bloke you're in a relationship with, but seemingly he doesn't value you, your health or well being enough to stay and make sure you're ok, preferring instead to repeatedly hang out with someone who you KNOW does have respect issues as far as you and your Boyf are concerned.

I think he could very well be abusive actually, his friendship with someone so 'low' and the fact that they both agree that the 'real him' comes out with her, shouts volumes about how he sees himself.

The bollocks spouted about cheating, about how slutty, low and unattractive she is, is very likely to be, perhaps unjustifiably, how he sees his true self.

If his family background dynamic is shit, then i'll be even more sure of it.

I'm not telling you to dump him. I think you should, but perhaps only to nip this crap in the bud, so that he knows you won't put up with it.

Saying you won't let him do it to you again, in future, is actually letting him off this time.

He won't take you seriously unless you say that at the very least you need a break.

What he does THEN will be very telling.

RaRa, you HAVE to put yourself first. that has to happen. Whether you stay with him or not.

This is not the be all and end all relationship you think it is, it's a transition, one for you to learn from. This guy's not a keeper, not without radical personality surgery.

Be brave. None of us are here to attack you, all of us see that you are vulnerable and worth more.

We'll be here for you whenever you need it.

It's not that stupid to give him another chance i suppose as people have to live their own lives and make their own choices, it would be utterly ridiculous to go against yourself because of an internet forum even if they eventually turned out to be right. Clearly many people have done it including me... Spectacularly...

That said, it worries me that the type of moving on you seem to be doing is the making excuses for him and thinking how he treated you was not all that bad really, I'm sure you've been angry with him but with us you are defending him. Actually just the bare bones; that he'd think of the pub, that he'd go, that he'd expect you to pick him up, that he'd then let his phone die and not come home and that he has clearly told her you have told him to stop speaking to her... He just sounds amazingly callous and irresponsible and manipulative and I very seriously doubt that is one isolated experience and I expect that it is simply the biggest and your apparent underwhelment is due to him generally behaving thoughtlessly and those being the general terms of the relationship.

Is he really all that good? Do you really want to be with someone at all who was capable of such detachedness and unkindness? Try to look at him through someone else's eyes - how would you feel if your daughter's partner had behaved how he did? How would any child you might have feel if he behaved so callously to them, even once?

You sound calm, kind, strong and loving and you deserve much better than someone who was capable of even that one incident. If you stay, and probably most people take a while to become convinced they are being manipulated if they are, be very, very careful because although everyone does make mistakes they are not usually so callous.

I ended a 1 year relationship the other week.

Because he said that he didn't think there was much of a long term future.

He cared for me, thought I was wonderful etc etc. He didn't have some odd friend, he didn't leave me to go through a MC on my own while he got tanked up with his mates/some bint.

I had to put every feeling I had for him to one side and end it.

Why?

Because i'm worth more to myself than someone who's with me cos it suits him to be.

My predicament pales into utter insignficance when compared with the MC.

Even my abusive ex held my hand on the 3 losses I had.

Mind you, he was a spectacular tosser when I had minor surgery. Perhaps that was another sign I ought to have kicked him to the kerb then.

RaRaZ, do what you feel instinctively is right, keep you eyes open, and be mindful of what others say and do.

What I think is this man doesn't like women very much, and that he is going to become more abusive, at least verbally, the longer you stay with him. He insists that the woman he went out with is his friend but he describes her as an ugly slut. That's not how people should talk about their friends. How do you think he describes you to other people? It's probably as some neurotic nagging cow (which I am not saying that you are, at all) because he can't see women as people.

The friend is irrelevant.

He left you alone while you were having a miscarriage.

It doesn't matter if he was with that friend, any other friend, his mum, or wandering alone on a moor somewhere writing beautiful poetry.

He chose to leave you alone when you were having a miscarriage.

He's a shit. It would be better to end the relationship.

Him dumping and insulting his friend doesn't change anything, it merely shifts focus.

I don't necessarily think you should stay with him but I also don't think you should be making life changing decisions based on opinions from people on an online forum who do not have to live with the implications.

As Hissy said do what feels right, deep down you will know what that is.

Deep down she doubts herself though, as the opening of this thread she didn't know if she should be upset or was being unreasonable during her monumentous circumstance.

Imho, I believe RaRaZ just shouldn't automatically believe everything she is being told.

I agree Solid.

SolidGoldBrass : Think you've got the wrong end of the stick - though no wonder, there've been that many posts here! He didn't describe his friend as an overweight slut - I did. He's said that she sleeps around and told me some of her escapades (which she apparently doesn't mind people knowing), and I can see her weight for myself. My only reason for mentioning it is that he's always been attracted to slim girls and I know that he finds people of her size unattractive. It was said in responsive to the suggestion that he was having, or about to commence, an affair with her.

An update: We've just been out for tea and had a good long calm chat about everything and where we stand. We're clear now and, though I'm hardly 'over' what happened on Thursday night, I don't think anything has changed in how we feel about each other. However, I suggested a little independent thought... I've got one of my best girl mates coming to stay for the weekend and we're going out with some of the other girls from school, so I'm having a nice girly weekend, and he's off to see his best mate. We'll both be speaking to our best friends about stuff and getting their perspective, as well as obviously having some time apart. We're ok atm, but I think it'll do us good.

Are you going to hold off trying for a baby?

I think deciding whether you stay with him or not is one thing but bringing a baby into the equation is quite another. Sorry I know this is probably sensitive just now but I think it's very important. If there's question over his suitability as a partner especially his support for you during difficulty then he needs to prove himself.

Hi RaRaz, I haven't read all of the posts because it was getting a bit heavy I just wanted to give you my experiences.

The first unfortunately didn't end well. I was with my ExP for 3 years, during which he had a female best friend. I never had a problem with this even when she told him she had feelings for him because he said she wasn't his type and I believed him, with her being the complete opposite of me. Then one night he stayed out a lot later than he promised with said friend and it all came out that he had been dancing and kissing her all night. Needless to say I finished it immediately.

Now my second experience I think is most relevant. I was with my current DP for just over a year when we had an unplanned pregnancy. He freaked out completely and told me he didn't want the baby and that he couldn't cope. Leading me to head home across the country for a few days to get my head straight with my family. During this time I had a MC. MY current DP didn't offer to come and see me, and he just seemed completely unlike the person I fell in love with.

Within 2 months we had gone on a break because I couldn't understand the way he acted. But after a lot of talking through our feelings we went on a make or break holiday which again ended in an unplanned pregnancy (have since found out that I am incompatable with the Pill). This time he stood by me completely and now we have a gorgeous 2 year old and we are getting married next year.

I think that a lot of people on Mumsnet have read so many threads about DV or EA or just plain old arseholes that they start to see it in every thread.

I would also like to put out there that maybe the reason he went out drinking in the first place is because the child that he had been trying for was also taken from him, and he didn't know how to deal with this. I am not defending his actions, as I know he would have been dragged from there as soon as I got the first interfering text from his 'friend'.

And I just want to say that I am so sorry for your loss, mine was quite early on at 7 weeks but just be reassured that you can get happy endings :) I hope that you feel better and that everything can be sorted.

Bringing your friends in to it sounds a dreadful idea. Too much drama.