Support thread for those in emotionally abusive relationships...coming of age:21

[foolonthehill]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
a check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
why financial abuse is domestic violenceAre you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
20 signs you're with a controlling and/or abusive partner Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans ? He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out ? You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
heart to heart a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

what couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
should I stay or should I go bonus materials this is a site containing the material for men who want to change?please don?t give him the link?print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
bill of rights here is what you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

Pie tick tick tick... FW behaviour. Are you 'out'?

bounty mine left easily and he is a FW. he actually said 'I am a decent guy and not the kind of person who wouldn't leave when they were asked'. wtf. (bit different though this is my house)

remember bounty he has OW and he knows you know.

Why do these FWs think they are 'decent guys' they wouldn't know a 'decent guy' if he ran over them with a shopping trolley.

bounty ,what everyone else said about your FW! And that's him on a good day?! The 'you've always known looks are important to me'... Well, the second part of that is about shallowness, the first part is accusing, whiny- he's the victim here who's always made it clear yet hasn't got a wife who is respectful/clever/caring enough to maintain perfection for him.
YUCK.
!
I think that triggered something off in me, the 'you've always known' bit- had similar many times from fw. It's so victimy and yet accusatory, I hats it.

Woke up a bit sad, had a funny dream that I had flown to Nicaragua and been bitten by a spotted lizard ???? and woke up sad as I used to travel about a bit with FW and have interesting weekends and wonder who I'll go with now. But the dream sad as I met FW in an unusual place, and got seriously bitten!

Re: photographs they DO show happy times because there always are/were happy times and no one gets out their camera at sad times- there are good photos of my parents- not many mind- and I have some beautiful photos with FW. I daren't look at them at no, but do remember that after some fab ones taken on holiday he got into a major weird mood about two hours later because I had a call from ds to say his friend had hurt herself in the park- had a longish conversation and then had to pay for it all night long. I have to remember that when I get out the photos!

Fi yyy

Ouch. Something you said just recently butterfly has just resonated quite so much with me that I was very nearly sick. Isn't it strange how you can bowl along just fine and then wallop... it hits you in the solar plexus like a juggernaut

Still, today is going to be a lovely day. I'm doing a roast for the first time in a while, with dd2's friend and her dad coming over to help eat it. It will be bedlam - just the way I like it

And then when they've all gone to bed (or home) I shall finish off the last of the wine (friend's dad doesn't drink much) before kicking my arse into gear for tomorrow when I restart my diet with a vengeance after a week or so ignoring it! And I have to get out running again - I've not been for well over a week.

Right, off to peel a mountain of spuds. See you all in the Vixens later

Bounty I just read your post
The FW is a complete tosserwankerFW.
What he is saying makes no sense - it is headfuck fwittery that has nothing whatsoever to do weight but everything to do with control.
Read back what he said - it is complete load of shite, which has resulted in you justifying yourself for what! ? for having children?!
which was his goal in the first place.
(proud that I kept my French almost acceptable )

Sorry bad grammar -
I meant that getting you to justify yourself was your FW's goal, not your having children - which you, obviously did entirely by yourself in a willful scheme to become so obese just to spite his sensibilities!

bounty He does sound very much like he is putting it back on you. Sort of a "I told you this is how I feel, you were very selfish for ignoring it" kind of thing. Like in his mind he made it a condition of the relationship IYSWIM and you've broken the rules in his opinion. Is he a perfect specimen?

That being said, I completely understand where you're coming from. I've been struggling lately as well. H has had some decent days here and there, although my brain tells me it's because nothing specific has upset him. I know exactly when things are not going the way he wants, as he instantly reverts to bellowing. But then I begin to wonder if anyone will believe it. He obviously has his act perfected. He's getting his ego stroked at work as he's doing well, and I suspect he comes crashing to a bump when he gets home and everyone isn't falling all over him. He makes such a point of telling me any and all good comments he gets, and I'm not sure if he's trying to convince me or himself.

Bounty I second the suggestion to get him to sign papers whilst he is being 'reasonable'. When we first had the 'talk' nsdh angrily offered to agree to everything . . .it lasted half a day . . . and then he was back to being obstructive. I know you're upset and hurting but if you can get the papers signed then you have them to fall back on.

One of the techniques I use when I'm not sure if nsdh is being unreasonable or abusive is to think how could someone else respond in this situation? Is there an alternative response that wouldn't have left me feeling upset/angry? eg instead of your FW stating that he had made it clear before what he felt about weight, what if he had said, 'I realise it sounds controlling and heartless to be so presciptive about your body shape and I love you as a person no matter what'. or what if he had said 'I realise that I promised to love and care for you and that by being so critical of your shape I'm undermining any security you can have in my love? Or even if he had just said 'I don't mean it to upset you but I can see it does and how can I make it better?'

(of course they're only a handful of responses that wouldn't be abusive, and they don't even start to address the text messages/affair.)

I don't use the alternative responses technique to imagine a new reality - it just helps me to see the chain of the conversation and determine where it veered off into upset/anger. (and sometimes it does help me to see where I've veered it off into anger too. Let me make that clear - I don't think you did anything wrong in that conversation at all. I'm just saying that sometimes I can see where I've let underlying issues affect my response).

I hate him. FW!!!!! he just did something so cruel to the dcs to get agree me. I hate him. I am so and extremely that he would use his on kids like this. he is an utterly despicable fuckwit shitbag.

i really could just literally scream either frustration.

and also annoyed with myself because i cannot magically make it better for them. not only that I am doing piss poor job of trying.

bounty yy to get home to sign now. in fact why not ask him to move out? why should you and dcs rent?

and i bet you have a wonderful figure and he is trying to undermine your confidence because he has realised that once you are single other men might actually be interested and you might like gem better than him. it is all part of the who else would have you game.

get him to FOtTFSOFO

mink. You cannot take away dc hurt, you can only hug them and tell them you are sorry they have been through whatever it was and make sure they are loved and secure with you. Hard to advise without details, but you have to concentrate on making their home with you as safe and secure as possible and building up contact with other good people in their lives who offer love and affirmation for them.

tis i am sorry if I inadvertently upset you. PM me if it is something you want to talk about. (Hugs)

FW turned up to pick the dcs up. whilst waiting for them to put shoes on he asked me about something I said to dsd (his m apparently told him about it). I said i wasn't going to discuss it with him as it is between me and her. he pressed the point. i refused to give in so he stormed off telling me to f off he wasn't having the kids. leaving them literally crying after him on the doorstep. dc2 was distraught.

this is after dc1 telling him how much she loved him when he came to get them and asking to see him more.

since then he has by email accused me of poisoning dsd against him. trying to use this to get him to see dcs more (not even rational) the usual name calling etc.

says he is 'not going to look after the dcs for me anymore'

i asked him how he could justify punishing them to get at me but he was too busy ranting on about what i had done.

he is nuts.
he sent some long email about how i am interfering in his family. how he isn't going to see the dcs because there is no point as i will be poisoning them against him and how i am never to contact him again ever.

anyway i decided i am not covering for him anymore so i told his m exactly what he had done. and also gave dsd that heads up that he may be on a rant.

replied to him saying his r/s with his family is his and his alone. as is mine with them and he cannot control it. also i would love never to speak to him or see him again but do not have that option because of the dcs. pointed out the dcs ARE his family too. and that i do not nor would i try to poison his family against him. his children will base their opinion of him on how he behaves. but nor will i lie for him. if he is verbally and emotional abusive as he was today then i will tell people about it.

have had to hide in another room as my crying (with frustration) was upsetting the dcs but they are playing nicely just now.

looking back i suppose i could have 'played' it differently when he asked about dsd. but why should I let him bully me. (situation with dsd is very complicated as the subject he asked about is something he has very strong feelings about and he and she fell out over it and it has basically ruined their r/s for the last 2years)

typical FW though blame everyone else when they should be looking in the mirror.

and to not even loom back when dc2 was howling up the street after him because he just walked off and left her.

No, mink, you did right, he should respect his dd's privacy, plus if you had told him, she would not have trusted you. You did the right thing, and you should not only tell people how he has behaved, you should keep a log too.

That apart, and I know this is hard as I had similar with dd's dad, you need to think of strategies to protect dcs. For example, her dad would say he would call and then not do it, he would cancel contact at short notice etc, he would leave her waiting for an hour. I stopped telling her he was going to phone, and if he did, that was a nice surprise, rather than a disappointment. I would arrange contact to meet at softplay and if he didn't come, we were still there. The worst he did was not show up at her 5th birthday party, but she was having such a fab time with her friends, she didn't notice.
I was upset with it, though.

It means you get no time off, or nothing substantial, but I did kind of take the decision he was not going to teach her that she should be let down or kept waiting. He has got better over the last few years, but there was a lot of crap for several years.

As I have said, look to your other support network, help dcs to have many other positive relationships, and if their father is there, good, if he is not, they will find love and support elsewhere.

But yes, it is bollocks. Hugs for you and dcs.

'look after them for you ' yyy you were so right to be screaming FW from the rooftops.

I had exactly same situation last year when FW ex had taken huge exception to me calling his ways abusive, and he completely 'dumped' DD telling me I could explain why, so I did, it broke her heart, but she knew he did the dumping not me. She doesn't understand why he would, but that was the day I stopped protecting him.

I'm really sorry Mink that he is such a shit miserable abusing excuse of a man/father, because neither of those titles actually belong to him... the other one, shit, miserable, abusing do though, along with FW.

I think you did right FWIW to never have doorstep discussions in front of kids, it'll only ever go his way or cause massive fallout ime.

I do wonder whether this will EVER EVER EVER EVER change... I think not.

I hope you can feel ok that you actually did good, and that its him and the situation he caused thats bad. The DC are learning about him, some very painful lessons, but he is the teacher, he alone.

take care xxx

If he doesn't turn up, she knows HE hasn't, and we get on with something else.

They know that other ppl don't do this.

Hi, it's me again. I wanted to thank you all for your advice, and after talking to DP she decided to post, It's the one that says "I'm not a survivor, I'm broken" (she knows I have posted on here, and will join you when she is ready). You were all very helpful to me, with advice on how to help her, I guess I am just asking you to take a look at it, and be as nice to her.

Thankyou

mink you were entirely right not to discuss it.
He is a selfish, controlling, abusive FW. He alone upset your dcs.
No wonder you're .

YY to "you've always known"... so victimy and yet accusatory. bounty, give him a blow-up doll with photo of your face (pre-dcs of course) as a leaving present. That should be perfect.

mink, what an utter scumbag to his kids. It's like they don't even recognise they are people, sometimes, isn't it?! You were quite right not to talk to him about your relationship with dsd.

I have a question for y'all. Now that I'm back on track with wanting to separate, I'm dreading next weekend when he comes home for two weeks. Every time he and I touch, the dcs call loudly, "Snogging!" gotta love 'em - cannot face the pretence! So I was wondering about telling him by email this time. Generally speaking, it would be a shoddy way of ending a marriage, but do you think it would be ok in this case? The big bonus is that I am an ocean away from the emotional fallout of the first few days!

I have a big post to write but laptop has died and he's hogging the comp so it wil hav 2 wait until hes gone to bed. Awful, awful weekend.

I am exhausted, wrung out, cried out. H has just left to work away again thank goodness which gives me a bit of space to sort out my spaghetti head. I have been professionally hoovered I think and am now so confused. I cannot believe that in 48 hours I have so quickly gone from 100% splitting up to really not sure.

So as I posted last night we had The Talk part 2. He came up with some potentially plausible explanations about the texts to the poss OW. My gut is not convinced but he was pretty convincing. However, worryingly he has now password protected his phone so does not exactly make me think there is nothing on there to worry about. The thing I am struggling with really is that throughout our relationship the one thing I have always thought is that he is 100% honest (sometimes brutally so) but maybe he's just a good actor.

Anyway got up this am convinced we cannot go on. I have re-read through the weight discussion and I know that I cannot live in a relationship that puts so much importance on physical looks. And I can not bring DD up experiencing that either.

So I felt totally certain in myself. However first thing in the morning D somehow found a stupid free showergel from a hotel buried in my drawer. It is from a hotel we stayed in on our first night away without her after she was born, about 2 years ago. For some reason, the sight of this and the memories it evoked just overwhelmed me with sadness. I managed to pull myself together but when I saw H (we slept in separate rooms) I just had tears rolling down my cheeks I couldn't control. He asked me if he could hug me and stupidly I agreed. And just melted into his arms. He stroked my neck and this was honestly the most affetion I've had from another human being for over a year.

We then went on to have the perfect day that I imagine any family could have. What I think is normal for most people. We sang nursery rhymes with DD. Picniced in the lounge. He persuaded me not to go to the gym as I didn't sleep well last night.

I think I've said that we have a week away booked from Sat in a cottage and I was undecided what to do. He basically persuaded me gently and nicely to come along but with my own car so I feel no pressure. Can leave if I want etc. So I agreed. Partly I'm sure because he's filled my head with happily families.

Anyway he got more and more cheerful and just normal tonight. So as he was leaving I said that he still needs to think about the weight thing. That I am not prepared on any level to be in a relationship where I am constantly watching what I eat, or feeling I must deny myself or exercise vigorously. Chances are I won't put on loads of weight because of my metabolism/body shape etc but I will not be tied to this.

He then said so all your promises before we had DD were lies (He said that his big fear was me getting fat after kids and I said that that wouldn't happen and that I didn't want to be fat either). I replied that in my opinion I have kept these promises as I think I look fine and fit in my pre-preg clothes so hence I have not got fat after having DD. Obviously I have a slight bulge over my c-section scar but as my abdominal muscles have been totally cut and then scarred I cannot help that.

So he looked at me and said 'Are you saying this is as good as it gets?' I said not necessarily but I think I look ok so I'm not going to promise to be thinner this. I refuse to live worrying about my weight. I don't intend to get fat but who can promise anything in life. I will be slim because I want to be, not because I have to be. And I will not tolerate comments on either my shape or what I am eating unless I specifically ask for an opinion.

He asked if that was neogitable and was I willing to try. I said I p[robably will want to try to be slima nd toned but am not promising so he needs to think about that this week.

He then said well if that's non negoitable then you have what you want but stormed off tutting and shaking his head.

I need to end it don't I? This man is not going to change is he? I really don't think he'll be able to keep his mouth shut. Oh he also said that I would ned to be able to explain to DD when she's old enough why we split up because it will be entirely my decision.

We left it that we will decide in the week whether I come on the holiday. If I do come then it doesn't mean I've decided to give our marriage a go. If I do come then I may choose to leave early if things are bad.

Sorry for being so long. The thing I'm struggling with most is how one pleasant, normal day witha bit of affection can rock my certainty so much. How is this?

Will read everyone else now - just needed to get this off my chest

hey Charlotte... just wondering what you would want to say, as yeah, sure it well past wondering about the etiquettes of ending it in this situation!

What would your after-plan be? to stay there, get out? I think it depends on that ato what ou would say I think. Ifyou were just leaving with the DC, then I'd just go, and leave the briefest note that you'd gone, and not to contact, solicitors numbers is: ... etc.. but if you are staying, and need agreement to some rules, a sollicitors letter might be good, as part of the divorce proceedings, etc.

What do you think?

Still at least I no longer have to worry about how will react to phone call from the CSA. he can find out when he gets it. it will be a nice surprise.

ok time. I know! on a school night.

If i don't post tomorrow send in the frogmen there's been a drinking in bath accident heck just send in the frogman anyway I may be feeling kinky.

date tonight cancelled he is poorly. probably just as well. I would have been too and no one wants a 1st date with someone who is got under the covers with the kids for storytime instead.

am thinking I am still not really ready but will just play it by ear.

dcs v philosophical about earlier. they are funny wise little people.

just reread that post for typos. I had written send in the frigmen I can't even blame Bernard I am on the laptop. freudian slip. that was more like a freudian prolapse.

Charlotte email may be a shoddy way to end a normal marriage but I think an EA relationship means all normal standards are moot. Hence I'd think it was ok to tell him by email but my concern would be that you have no way then of knowing if he has read it or not.

It might put you at a disadvantage if he pretends it wasn't delivered, comes home as normal and you're left not knowing if he did read it or not iyswim. Plus he's then had some time to prepare for the conversation if you have it when he returns which (depending on how manipulative he is) may put you at even more of a disadvantage.

There are lots of wiser posters than me on here though so I'm sure they'll have better ideas about it.

bounty - hope you are doing ok today after the Talk 2.0. Hope you can also see from what everyone has said that he is still being abusive, still controlling - can you imagine how controlling he would be if the two of you did a diet together? As mink says, he knows you know about the OW, so he is making things easy for himself, not for you - and this way, he can say my wife left me, poor me, she just walked out. I also agree he may be thinking you wont actually go through with it. Ask him to leave and see how reasonable he is then.

mink - am utterly, utterly appalled at your FW. For him to do that to his kids, and to crap all over them by saying he's looking after them for you rather than seeing it as spending time with his won children... Beggars belief. Cry, scream, rage, rant. Get it out of your system. Then get serious - what can be done to stop him doing this again? Glad you've told DSCs and his M, don't cover for him, what he's done is awful.

Charlotte - it's not a shoddy way to end it. You did end it, face-to-face. And he ignored you and hoovered you back. This time it's email. next time, text! You can compose exactly what you want to say, and you have documented evidence for any reply. Do it!!!!!

Leclerc - hope you enjoyed your roast dinner, and your night out last night!