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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

am I being assertive or unreasonable

294 replies

skatingonice · 03/05/2013 09:12

After a tough couple of years have decided to make ago of my relationship (of 12 years) but realised for my sanity I needed to be more assertive with what I want from the relationship.
There have been positive changes with house work (he can do some without being asked!) And a few other things too.

The sticking point is now sex. The has been a bit of a drout whist things were settling down but the last few times we have started we always stop as I want him to spend some time caressing me and turning me on, without just grabbing my breasts or putting his hand between my legs... Not saying he can't do these or I don't like them, just don't want him to start there. I have spoken to him, explained this, but he doesn't seem to get it, the other night I tried moving his hand on to my stomach (which I have said I like been stroked), another time I asked him to kiss my neck.... These are met with a blunt end to proceedings... He says I'm been unreasonable, those things don't turn him on so he shouldn't have to do them. I should just be turned on or be happy with where/how he wants to touch me. If I say please can you do x, the reply will be "well what are you going to do to turn me on? " but he is obviously already more turned on then me...He says I can only ask for things that are mutually enjoyable (I pointed out sex with both of us turned on would be mutually enjoyable)

I think he is obviously turned on enough for PIV sex from much less then I am. Is it unreasonable for me to expect him to spend some time getting me turned on too?)

OP posts:
Original poster
skatingonice · 23/05/2013 16:44

Its not clearly abusive to me or I would have left!

I need to take on board what people have said and form my own opinion.

I do appreciate everyone's input and the time you have taken to respond. I realise it's frustrating that I can't see things how you do, but I cant just hear a new perspective on my life and suddenly decide is right. I need to thing things over and work it out for myself.

OP posts:
AgathaF · 23/05/2013 17:00

Of course you are going to need some time to adjust to the reality of your situation. You have lived with this for a long time. This is your normal.

Freedom programme might be a good idea though.

BerylStreep · 23/05/2013 17:04

Skating, of course you need time to work it out.

It would be more obviously abusive if he hit you. But emotional abuse (which is what this is, your H has some seriously fucked up wiring) is just as insidious.

I can hear it in your posts - you have no confidence to be sure of your convictions - one minute you are saying to yourself 'this isn't right', the next you are questioning yourself 'perhaps it is me, I can be difficult'. Do you see what I mean? He has your confidence and your sense of you so eroded that you are like a blade of glass in the wind.

Spero · 23/05/2013 19:20

I am not 'frustrated' with you. I feel very sad for you. You are able to describe very clearly an abusive situation but you can't recognise it. Is isn't a criticism - you are attached to him, the thought of being without him scares you.

Most of us in abusive relationships stayed way longer than any outside observer would think sensible or safe. But this is why abusive relationships area dangerous - you do get attached to your abuser, you do find you lose confidence in your ability to be objective.

It took me a year of all my friends saying leave him, he is awful before I could hear. And it was only after he tried to wreck my 30th birthday party that I finally woke up. I had only been with him for 18 months.

So I don't underestimate the powerful ties that 12 years with someone can bring. But just because you are attached to someone doesn't make it healthy or right.

Of course it is your life and your decision. I hope you can take some time and reflect on all that is written here, but most importantly what you wrote.

Charbon · 24/05/2013 12:34

Mentions of other threads made me search for them.

Why are you minimising what were evidently sexual affairs with at least two other women?

Why are you minimising the misogyny that so many posters picked up on?

This seems to be one of those situations where everyone else can see the truth but you cannot. I'm wondering what's happened in your life to have created this much denial about things that are so very obvious?

amverytired · 24/05/2013 13:11

You are in a lousy relationship right now, I promise you it will only get much worse if you got pregnant and had a child.
Eventually you would see how damaging his behaviour would be for your child, even if you yourself thought you could cope with it. Far better to work out how to leave this rubbish relationship now, heal yourself and then think about finding a kind supportive partner to have children with.
What is the point of wasting even more time with him?

Original poster
skatingonice · 24/05/2013 15:13

Firstly to clarify I have no intention of trying for Children at this point in my life.

I don't think the EA's were sexual. But the way I was treated during the first one was unacceptable. However we agreed to put this behind us and try again so I need to let that go. It was two years ago.

The second EA was just to much contact, this has now reduced.

I don't know if this is abusive. I just don't know. If it is he doesn't mean it to be. That doesn't make it right. If I had a way to be sure I could easily deal with it. Its the uncertainly that eats me up. Looking back now I can see things that probably were at least mildly abusive. But is it always abuse? Might it not be some one reacting in the wrongway? No one reacts the right way all the time. We all make mistakes.

This last few days he has been nice, the photos were removed from Internet without argument or sulking. What I had said about 'bedroom activity' has been taken on board. I have wondered if he has found this thread.... He won't keep it to himself for long if he has. If he hasn't then things are improving...

The only thing now is very regular "are you okay" , "is everything okay" which is frequent enough to be odd.

OP posts:
Charbon · 24/05/2013 15:56

I think those relationships were sexual and I don't agree that you need to put them behind you, especially as one of those affairs is still going on and he is in 'reduced' text contact with that person.

But affairs like that are all part of a pattern of abusive behaviour. I think you need to read some Lundy Bancroft.

YoniBottsBumgina · 24/05/2013 20:31

I think that the vast majority of abusers are not doing so consciously, they are just following relationship patterns they have seen played out growing up, or think that their way is the right way/their only choice to deal with the situation which they feel others are putting them in. They don't tend to recognise any other way even if it is spelled out to them.

You are right in saying it still doesn't make it right.

CharlotteCollinsismovingon · 24/05/2013 20:53

Read Lundy Bancroft. That'll answer whether it's abusive or not.

AgathaF · 25/05/2013 07:29

we agreed to put this behind us and try again so I need to let that go. It was two years ago - you've tried to put it behind you. For lots of reasons, it clearly hasn't been possible to put it behind you. No shame in that.

FrickingFedUp · 25/05/2013 07:48

Make sure he has no pictures of you, then ltb. First time I've said that - he sounds like a prize twat.

You sucking his cock is NOT the same as him showing some tenderness and affection during foreplay, and if he can't see that, it is a lost cause I'm afraid.

FrickingFedUp · 25/05/2013 09:11

Just caught up on thread - I will admit that sometimes mn is too quick to jump on the "he's abusive - ltb" bandwagon, but this is not one of those threads I'm afraid.

It is a classic trick to pick fights before/after someone goes away or does something without them. My ex used to do it to me, so eventually I stopped going out to make life easier. You had a lovely time with friends, yet he had to spoil this for you? And make you feel as though it was all you fault? Can you not see that this is not nice?

Fwiw my exes behaviour did escalate to physical abuse, but what was far more damaging was the damage it did to my sense of self worth. I remember feeling as you do, if only I could work out how to keep him happy/try harder things would be ok.

Please get out now op. And get some counselling. It is only now after having some counselling and talk about it that I have come to forgive myself and realise it is not my fault and I am not flawed in some way.

Original poster
skatingonice · 31/05/2013 08:15

Just for documentation purposes:

I'm a "selfish bitch" everything is always about me and Inever put the relationship first or make him a priority.

So we had a talk about things and that was the outcome. Row started cos I didn't reply to a facebook message (feel like I'm 12 writing that). It was "disrespectful of me"

Went on to other things and I pointed out all the things he picks me up on and explained how that makes me feel. Said I couldn't keep tapering my mood or behaviour to suit him... Just Need To Be myself, but that should be okay... shouldn't It? That's the being a bitch and being selfish.

I'm putting my need above the relationship... I said of I couldn't be myself there was no relationship.

I also "never listen to him, don't understand him, I have formed all these opinions and am sticking to them regardless of the effect it has on him" (well Yes...) which is me being a bitch...

Also picked up on my behaviour in other areas... again I just do what I want with no regard for the relationship - this was as I have been to see a friend he doesn't like me seeing and messaged other people (messages he is welcome to read). He's never told me not to see our talk to these people.... Just makes it hard work when I do

It does feel very selfish, but it also feels right. Am I putting myself above the relationship, do I need to back off a little and compromise more.

He says I've changed, and that's true to an extent. I feel guiltily about that as I'm not giving him much choice in the matter. He says I don't give a shit about him or what he thinks. I do. Guess he won last night as the row ended with me telling him what I liked about him etc etc Street he had spend two hours Slating me. But if I'm the one being different is only fair I reassure him....

OP posts:
Original poster
skatingonice · 31/05/2013 08:17

Can't get hold of a copy of that book.

OP posts:
Spero · 31/05/2013 08:20

You are not selfish. He is trying to isolate you from all other friends. Classic behaviour.

I would never be in a relationship or friends with a man who called me a 'bitch'. It indicates very deep seated misogyny. It's a term my ex used frequently.

Original poster
skatingonice · 31/05/2013 08:32

To be fair he has a point with some of it... I do tend to get an opinion and stick to it (in my defence is normal well though out and researched first...) and I will tell things how they are so can come across as a bit of a bitch sometimes... I do try to be diplomatic where I can be

OP posts:
Spero · 31/05/2013 08:36

He doesn't have any kind of a point.

Are you seriously saying that having an opinion and stating it makes you a bitch?

Unless you shout and swear at him and refuse to listen you are perfectly entitled to have your views and state them. The fact he can't cope with this is yet another big tick in the box marked 'misogynistic insecure cunt'

Original poster
skatingonice · 31/05/2013 08:38

Also doesn't try an isolate me from all friends, just male ones he doesn't like!

OP posts:
Original poster
skatingonice · 31/05/2013 08:41

I've been told I'm a bitch so often I just suppose is true. I must be. Don't particularly view it as a negative

OP posts:
Spero · 31/05/2013 08:43

So that's ok then. Just trying to isolate you from male friends. And calls you a bitch so often it must be true.

What a prince.

Original poster
skatingonice · 31/05/2013 08:47

Thanks Spero. Easy to lose perspective.

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 31/05/2013 08:48

Well just on the sex thing, is he 13? At that age boys might think sex is just about penetration i.e. analogous to wanking. By 16 most will have read something about foreplay.

So, if you can't have sex that you don't both enjoy and you don't enjoy penetration without foreplay, you can't have sex at all, can you.

You're not actually concerned with sex you both enjoy, because he doesn't give a stuff about your enjoyment and you are going along with this and, for some reason, not saying 'no, I don't enjoy this, do it in a way that's nice for me or stop'.

From reading the rest of he thread you are applying exactly the same approach to the rest of your life. When you don't like his behaviour you pander to it, when he doesn't like yours he does his best to make your life difficult.

lottiegarbanzo · 31/05/2013 08:52

Btw on your 'blow job every time' point, the answer is yes, oral sex before penetration every time would be lovely thanks! If he'd like that too, as foreplay, so be able to move on to penetrative sex immediately afterwards, well, ok.

Do you honestly think that any adult male is thick and inexperienced enough not to know that male and female turn ons are different and that women usually need more foreplay to get them in the mood? Tell him to read a copy of Cosmo ffs, so he can be almost as well informed as a 16yo girl.

lottiegarbanzo · 31/05/2013 08:54

Also substitute 'him' for 'the relationship' in all your posts and his behaviour suddenly makes more sense.