am I being assertive or unreasonable

[skatingonice]

After a tough couple of years have decided to make ago of my relationship (of 12 years) but realised for my sanity I needed to be more assertive with what I want from the relationship.
There have been positive changes with house work (he can do some without being asked!) And a few other things too.

The sticking point is now sex. The has been a bit of a drout whist things were settling down but the last few times we have started we always stop as I want him to spend some time caressing me and turning me on, without just grabbing my breasts or putting his hand between my legs... Not saying he can't do these or I don't like them, just don't want him to start there. I have spoken to him, explained this, but he doesn't seem to get it, the other night I tried moving his hand on to my stomach (which I have said I like been stroked), another time I asked him to kiss my neck.... These are met with a blunt end to proceedings... He says I'm been unreasonable, those things don't turn him on so he shouldn't have to do them. I should just be turned on or be happy with where/how he wants to touch me. If I say please can you do x, the reply will be "well what are you going to do to turn me on? " but he is obviously already more turned on then me...He says I can only ask for things that are mutually enjoyable (I pointed out sex with both of us turned on would be mutually enjoyable)

I think he is obviously turned on enough for PIV sex from much less then I am. Is it unreasonable for me to expect him to spend some time getting me turned on too?)

[LisaMed]

In my very limited experience normal men when they realise you are not wet enough for comfortable penetration actually can't get hard enough to penetrate. They aren't interested unless both are at the party. Women who are wet all the time are only around in porn films (again, v limited experience, but it's to do with not seeing woman as a person but as a blow up doll with housework capability).

If you are wrong, if it is all you, then if you leave then he will be free to get a relationship with a compatible person and you will have space and time to heal yourself and then find yourself in a position to have a healthy relationship. If you are right it makes sense to leave, if you are wrong it makes sense from my seat to leave. Easier said than done.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Look, when he says 'what is good for the relationship' he means 'what suits him'. When he objects to your having an opinion or sticking to one, he means 'you should just agree with me / do what I say and shut up.' 'It is not valid for you to have any opinions or preferences about anything because you are not really a person, you are my accessory'. Can't you see that?

You're right that you don't need to debate with him. You don't need to walk away silently either. You can, briefly and calmly, state your position and leave it there. 'This is my position, you aren't going to dissuade me from it. When you have something to say that is compatible with this, then we can talk about it.'

You probably think that sounds massively selfish and unreasonable. It's what he's been doing forever though, except that his position is usually not reasonable and does not encompass respecting you as a person. Yours will encompass respect and be far more reasonable, so no worries on that count.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Honestly, do you want to be a human person, or do you want to live the rest of your life as someone else's blow-up doll? Those are the boundaries you're changing.

[skatingonice]

Thanks

Lisa - That's what i would like to think is normal, but I seem to have trouble identifying normal.

Yes there is more, and it was worse, that's what prompted this "wake up" if you like. It was like, Fuck, am i really going to let myself be put in that situation again.

I don't believe the EAs were sexual so we'll have to leave that one be :) (wish i had found MN then!)

[BerylStreep]

Skating, it would be a useful exercise to go through this entire thread, and try to find one single poster, other than you, who defends his behaviour or treatment of you.

[skatingonice]

yes, have done... but you only hear my side, what if i'm emotionally abusive to him, don't know it, and am putting this across in such a way that makes him look bad? (I think to much :) )

Apart from the sex stuff, where he has no argument really. But i have let it go on for to long so cant blame him for being confussed and acting out at the change.

[Dozer]

He's not confused about the changes, he's angry, and by the sound of it escalating abuse (the sex stuff, sulks etc).

You will always be in bad situations with him, things may have improved in relative terms, but you're not safe while you're still with him.

Does he have a porn habit by any chance?

We don't need to hear his side to know he's abusive, and his side wouldn't make us stop thinking and saying it!

[Dozer]

it's a common tactic of abusive people to accuse others of being EA!

[Dozer]

And whatever the worse stuff was, bet he's not sorry for it and won't let you talk about it.

[lottiegarbanzo]

skating, someone would have pointed out that possibility (of you being the problem), really. Look at other threads on here. People can come up with the most surprising and absurd contrarian views sometimes, you'd think they were doing it for a hobby. If there was any room for such an interpretation of your posts, someone would have swung into action.

[BerylStreep]

Lottie - how true bruised.

[skatingonice]

Does he have a porn habbit. He watches it when I'm not about. Not sure if that constitutes a habit.

One thing that I became more uncomfortable with last year was that I was becoming a part of this.... In terms of him posting pictures of me, he enjoys comments made by other men. Eventually made me feel like more of a sex aid then a person. He'll also watch videos of me and tells me this is better than him watching / looking at porn containing other people. But again, makes me feel like I'm just there for his pleasure. He has now taken these pictures down (I hope! ).

I don't mind him using porn, I would rather not be in it tho.

Dozer - your right, obviously he didn't do anything wrong and no not allowed to bring it up

Lottie - fair point

[Dozer]

[badinage]

Why do you believe that a man's personal boundaries are only dictated by the woman he's with?

Do you not realise that no decent bloke would ever want to penetrate a dry woman? Regardless of whether she said she was willing? Or wouldn't want to put pictures of his partner on the internet for other men to comment and wank over, even if she gave him permission?

You're assuming way too much responsibility for this bloke's moral compass.

So it matters not if you 'change the boundaries'.

He would still be an unfaithful sexual abuser whoever he was with - or with any luck, not with.

[Dozer]

Please leave the bastard skating.

[clam]

Oh my dear skating. He's done a right number on you, hasn't he? I so wish you could see it.

[CharlotteCollinsismovingon]

And what do i say, "we're not having sex unless you spend time on foreplay with me first" That's demanding in itself isn't it?

I guess it could be described as demanding. It's not healthy. But is there another (better) way to ensure he treats you decently? You feel you have to resort to behaviour you feel uncomfortable with, in order to be treated anything approaching decently. That is why your behaviour to him is NOT abusive. This scenario you suggest wouldn't happen in a healthy relationship, because things would never have got so bad that it was considered: the man would listen and notice for himself and be interested in what worked for the woman.

Your P thinks you are selfish and demanding if you have any needs of your own which don't fall within the circle of his own needs and wants. And you seem to have absorbed this to an extent, which is why you ask if you're being selfish whenever you want to stand up for your right to be your own individual person.

As for this: And how do i explain why i have allowed this to go on for years unchecked? Why i am changing the rules now? I am being asked this repeatedly by my STBXH at the moment. To date, I haven't found an answer that he understands. It's partly in the insidious nature of EA, how it grows unnoticed. But people do change and relationships do adapt. You expected to grow and change as people when you started out in the relationship. It's not an unreasonable thing for you to do. There's only a problem if your OH doesn't like the change he sees and starts trying to manipulate you to change back, interfering in your ability to steer your own ship in life. Because no matter how important your relationship is to you, you must never lose sight of who you are as an individual and setting your own boundaries is an important part of that.

[CharlotteCollinsismovingon]

It's just very sad if your boundaries are constant vulnerable to attack by your nearest.

[Louise1956]

he seems very selfish. most men are pleased to do things that turn their wives on, and you're only asking for quite ordinary things, if you wanted something extremely kinky it would be different. to have no interest at all in turning you on seems very odd. if he thinks what you want is nothing, to be honest it seems like he doesn't really care about you very much.

[mantlepiece]

I am wondering if you are from a different country to the UK, and think you are different to everyone giving you advice, and therefore cannot expect the same from a relationship?

I see you asking for advice and help and treating the answers as something beyond your understanding, and also feeling you cannot expect your partner to understand how to be in a mutually loving relationship.
There is something that is making you excuse such terrible behaviour. Especially when you know in your heart that he is a brute.

[Lweji]

Everything you describe is so wrong at so many levels.
On his part, but also yours. Why do you think you have stayed through all this?

[skatingonice]

From UK.

I do see what everyone is saying, and the things you are saying are right, but is hard to take things that havebeen a part of normal life for so long and accept they shouldn't have been happening.

It's also hard when all the above is going on in a relationship where I do feel loved and wanted. The person that makes me feel bad is also the person whos arms I fall asleep In at night. The person who I go to for a hug when I feel bad. The person I laugh and joke with.
No, the good times don't make the bad times okay but they do make them hard to accept, especially when I have been used to them for so long.

[BerylStreep]

But the good cop bad cop routine is an abusers script. It is designed to do exactly what you are describing. It confuses you, and keeps you tied into the relationship.

[CharlotteCollinsismovingon]

What Beryl says is very true, and so few people seem to understand that. You say "abuser" and you can see them hearing "sadistic monster". And of course it's not as black and white as that. They are humans, but with some dodgy wiring that makes them believe they are worth more than their partners and they are entitled to control their partners. So if they are not experiencing anything in conflict with these beliefs, they can give all the appearance of being lovely people. And then it's hard to believe that Hyde will ever come back.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

It is very very difficult. The person who hurts you is also the person who you go to to seek comfort. That's why it's so hard to separate out and to disconnect - because of course you don't want to disconnect from your support and safety! The problem is when the need for that support and safety is coming from him in the first place.

To address the earlier points (I wanted to before but was on my phone and kept reading late at night and falling asleep)

It is utterly and perfectly reasonable and normal to refuse to have sex without foreplay. Most women would not find sex pleasurable without foreplay. To most people it would be akin to eating your food without cooking it first. In a healthy sexual relationship it is perfectly fine to say "Stop, I'm not ready yet" or words to that effect and your partner would not take offence or blame you for the fact that you're not ready ( It's not exactly something you can control!) and they would probably try something else to help you to get into the mood. Also, even after some foreplay has been started if you were to say "Sorry, it's just not not working for me right now" and want to stop, that should be accepted without any argument or whining too. Foreplay isn't some kind of work he does in return for the "real" sex, it should be part of sex and mutually enjoyable for you both. Doesn't he enjoy seeing you getting more and more turned on as he does different things? This is really exciting for most men.

Which brings me to the other point in that, no, it is not your fault for "letting your moods get in the way". It's perfectly normal for emotions and external stresses to get in the way of sex and (women especially) need to be relaxed and feel safe in order to get turned on. Sex should not be something to work on, it should be relaxed, easy, enjoyable. Not an effort. Plus, why is his primary concern that you can't get in the mood for sex? It's perfectly fine to him that you should be in emotional turmoil most of the time as long as you can switch that part of your brain off and engage in sex with him regularly? What happened to a kind and caring partner who would rather not have sex with someone who isn't into it and on a separate note is concerned that you feel so down all of the time, not because of sex, but because he doesn't like to think of you being upset.