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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Support thread for those in emotionally abusive relationships: 14

999 replies

foolonthehill · 10/12/2012 21:15

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
a check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
why financial abuse is domestic violenceAre you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
20 signs you're with a controlling and/or abusive partner Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans ? He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out ? You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
heart to heart a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

what couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
should I stay or should I go bonus materials this is a site containing the material for men who want to change?please don?t give him the link?print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
bill of rights here is what you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

OP posts:
NiniLegsInTheAir · 27/12/2012 12:28

Agree with Leclerc there Treegles, stress does not make you a bad mummy. I understand how tired you must be - that sounds like my weekends! No real advice as I really struggle when in that situation too, I think the only real option is to go out somewhere with the boys, what about somewhere like a library? Any friends or family you can visit? Unless you can somehow persuade FW that there's somewhere he needs to be... Wink

Spent my morning pottering around tidying and doing washing. Think I'm really trying to avoid studying so got the books out now.

I was lying in bed last night listening to NSDH snoring away, and started to fantasise about getting the big knife from the kitchen and killing him while he slept, then about what I'd do with the body and how I would cover it up. Very frightening now I look at it in the cold light of day...

ChristmasTreegles · 27/12/2012 12:50

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ChristmasTreegles · 27/12/2012 13:32

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ponygirlchristmas · 27/12/2012 13:54

Hey all. Sounds like lots of you are having a tough time this Christmas. Xmas Sad Hugs to you all. Been thinking of you all loads, although I've not had much time to come online.

Treegles - he's not changed at all, and I'm so glad you can see that. Can you ask him to go again since Christmas is now over, or do you think he wouldn't? If he wont, make your plan and get out as soon as you can.

I had a thought yesterday about all our FWs - I was watching DS2 pull a massive tantrum, which I ignored. He then stopped tantruming and came over and laid his head in my lap, so I picked him up. Then I thought - hang on, that was manipulation just as much as the tantrum!! He got what he wanted in the end, me to pick him up. DS2 can't talk yet, but I'm sure as soon as he can, he'll be using the time-honoured 'I hate you Mummy, you wont give me a sweetie' (for example). Followed by 'I love you Mummy, please give me a sweetie'. But here's the thing that I realised - he wont be saying either of those things because they reflect what he feels. They are just words to use to get his own way. DS1 has never told me he hates me, and he tells me he loves me at random times, not when he's wanting something. And that's how I know he's expressing a true emotion. But when FWs call us horrible names and swear at us, or tell us they love us and how great we are, it's all just different words to get the same result - us to stay where we are, keeping doing what we're doing, ie making a nice life for them and bolstering their selves.

Words, words, words. I know we all know this, but it's hard to remember sometimes. Words mean nothing. They are just further tools in the FW arsenal. They all say they will change. Few of them actually do. And the fact that the words they use are usually about themselves (eg, Leclerc's 'lovely' letter - all about me and my poor emotions) is even more of a clue that they are empty words.

ChristmasTreegles · 27/12/2012 14:08

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WoIsMe · 27/12/2012 15:54

Hi all, I'm a newbie to this thread and a bit in shock. I didn't realise for a long time that I was being emotionally abused. I did have a problem with the way DH was treating the DCs but I didn't realise it extended to me as well. It has been getting much worse lately: the name-calling, martyrdom, shouting, swearing, unreasonable expectations, aggression and violence. I grew up with treatment like this, and so did he, so I think we're both a bit blind to it. My MIL was emotionally abused by my FIL for years and it only stopped quite recently after she was hospitalised with depression after a series of suicide attempts.

But that's not my biggest problem. I started looking up red flags and symptoms of emotional abuse on the Internet and I'm doing it too, to DH and to the DCs. I have been battling depression all year and I have been near suicidal at times and self harming (banging my head), sometimes on a daily basis lately. And I think I have been influenced by my DH's behaviour. The low point came when I was playing with DS3 and I affectionately called him a dickhead. Which is quite unbelievable, I was really shocked with myself and forced into the realisation that I had unwittingly copied my DH's manner of addressing the children. But I can't blame my behaviour on him. I suspect that we have both been feeding off each other's stress and the abusive behaviour has been propagated. I'm certainly not as bad as him but I'm not an innocent in all this either. I have shouted and sworn at my kids, self harmed in front of them, talked about leaving, and threatened to take away their toys which they wouldn't tidy away, which sounds trivial but must leave them feeling vulnerable, that their possessions could be stripped away from them on my whim.

So what do I do now? I was in the middle of working out how to deal with my DH's abuse but now I find that I'm guilty of it as well. I was at the point of phoning social services before Christmas to tell them I couldn't look after my children but my mum talked me out of it. She's a health visitor and she was worried that the kids would be taken away from me and put into care. Is there any way back from here? All the information I can find on the Internet is about getting away from abuse. I can't find anything on how recover when you are the one blindly repeating the lessons of your childhood and creating yet another broken generation. The websites make it sound like an abuser is doing it deliberately but I don't want to hurt my children. It should be easy to stop: I have done the parenting course and read the self-help books, I know how to care for my children. The problem is that if it was that easy, I wouldn't be doing it. I know that I don't ever want to do it again but I'm worried that the stress and depression and the bad habits are going to undermine my good intentions.

If I'm going to tackle my DH's abusive behaviour then I have to sort out my own problems first. If it came to the point where I had to leave him (which is looking increasing likely) then I need to be in a position where I can look after my children in an appropriate manner and at the moment I don't think I could do it. One DC has special needs and is very difficult to handle, but he is already starting to copy his father's aggressive behaviour, e.g. shouting over the top of his friends when they are speaking, standing over people to dominate them, and making violent threats towards his brother. I am also worried about the physical safety of my youngest. DH lost it while changing his nappy last night and held him up to his face to shout, "Will you please shut up" to him. DH picked him up so roughly that I was worried about his neck and spent the rest of the night leaping up to see to him at every sound because I didn't want DH to go near him again. I don't understand how things have got so bad, so quickly. DH has taken our three DCs to the park and two of the neighbours' kids as well at the moment so I'm left on edge, wondering what might happen. He'll put on his 'game face' for the neighbours' kids, pretending that everything is normal, but he's so close to the edge at the moment between work stress and sleepless nights that he may be more likely to lose it in public.

Sorry for the epic post. Once I started typing it just all spilled out.

TheSilveryTinsellyPussycat · 27/12/2012 16:22

Firstly, can you address the physical things that are adding to all this - principally the lack of sleep?

Secondly, abusive behaviour is like a dance, for the time being concentrate on seeing what the steps are you are both doing, and how they interact. Then you can start to address your side of the behaviour.

Take your time (unless violence/physical safety is involved, if so, phone police, run with pre-packed emergency bag)

Welcome, and btw no apologies necessay on this thread [hug] Brew

ChristmasTreegles · 27/12/2012 16:54

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TisILeclerc · 27/12/2012 18:41

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TryBreatheTwinkleFly · 27/12/2012 19:08

Hi Wo so sorry you have to be here and welcome. As Silver said, no apologies needed on here, no one judges and we all understand those terrible pressures. I'm not out yet but those who've tunnelled out say the pressure is much relieved. I find I'm at my worst and so are dcs when fw is around and particularly if he's being more difficult than usual.

Seeing a flat tomorrow... right size, catchment, over budget but hope can try and negotiate.

MatchsticksForMyEyes · 27/12/2012 19:49

Try hope the viewing goes well, hopefully they will just want to get someone in so you may have some room for manoeuvre with the rent.
leclerc, do you think dd1 is waivering r.e spending time with fw? Hope things with dd2 calm down once she's back.
Wo, once of the reasons I left was that I didn't like the way I was behaving towards the dc. I was so stressed all the time I was getting very shouty and dd was asking me why I was so angry all the time. I feel much calmer now I'm out.
Nini I used to have visions of doing fw some serious damage too. I had told close friends and family that if I started punching him I didn't think I would ever stop, he made me so angry with his unreasonable expectations. Another reason I'm glad I've gone.

MatchsticksForMyEyes · 27/12/2012 19:50

*one

ponygirlchristmas · 27/12/2012 19:57

Wo, I was very short and shouty with DS1 for long time before I left. I am much calmer with him now. And he's in a much better place emotionally, not just because I am calmer with him but because he's not watching (and listening to) his mum being subjected to shouting and name-calling, so he's calmer and better behaved too.

Try - will be crossing my fingers for you tomorrow.

giveitago · 27/12/2012 20:21

May I join in just for one post.

Just spend christmas with dh and ds - it was actually the second day of this year that we've spend time together as a family (my definition being just the three of us for 24 hours). dh works shifts and I work so not so much time together because I feel he won't take time off just for us - but rather for us to see his family etc. I asked at every school holiday if we could all do something. He declined. So I just take ds to my mother's place. Every summer we go as a family to his mother's place (he doesn't come to my mum's place with us).

However, this christmas day he slept most of the day (not surprised - he's very tired) but then perked up in the evening and rather than spending it with ds (dh would never spend it with me) he goes off to see his work friends. So that was our second day as a family this year.

I think it's unforgivable - he will shout at me that I don't know what family is yet he sets the tone and this is what it is now.

I reckon I've enabled the entire sorry thing and I don't know where to start (or have the energy) to get things back on track. I don't expect to be a couple. He clearly doesn't like me (I don't like him much) but everything is his way or no way whilst he makes out he's a big victim. I'm sick to the back teeth of treading on eggshells as I can do nothing right in his eyes yet he needs me.

He is tired - but then again I know lots of people who do those sort of hours and they make time for their family. In my case he thinks family means his blood relations.

TryBreatheTwinkleFly · 27/12/2012 21:40

Match and pony thank you for the good thoughts re tomorrow Smile
Give hello, welcome and so sorry you are having such a bad time. What you say sounds very familiar to me. My FW is very sanctimonious about family yet is happy to mistreat his wife and ignore his kids, but in his own mind's legendary tales of myth and bravado, he is a fiercely loyal provider who would lay down his life for his family. Shame all the hot air doesn't translate to a bit of hard work put into his marriage. Are your/his family nearby?

nini don't feel Blush about those thoughts of yours - that's all they are, thoughts and I reckon many of us have had 'em, including me. But of course we would never dream of following through, it's just our way of venting all the pain and nastiness that is inflicted on us daily and unjustly and that we have no other relief from, as we can't express our own anger in the normal way Xmas Sad

CharlotteCollinsislost · 27/12/2012 22:12

Wo - as others have said, it'd be easier (ie actually possible) to work on healthy parenting skills away from your h. You have shown such a deal of self-awareness and humility, you have all the makings of a brilliant parent.

Try - ooh, fingers crossed for tomorrow!

give - today I made plans to go out with dcs and friends as I knew otherwise we'd just hang around the house while h worked (or cooked and left the mess!). H's response? I should've told him, then he could've arranged his work to be able to come with us. Right. So, if it's just us, he'll do his own thing. If it's us and observers friends: "Ooh! People worth spending time with! And a chance to do the Disney Dad!"

It's demoralising, isn't it? It eats away at your self-esteem. But you say you've enabled it: I've felt like that, too. Till I realised he is not my son: I do not have the responsibility of making him behave well. He should be doing that himself and if he's not, it's not my fault. Probably we don't stand up for ourselves more often because they make it too much hassle, and if we "get our way" then it's usually not as good as we hoped it would be, because they sabotage it to make sure we wait longer before "piling the pressure on" again.

More middle class abuse here today. This time involving chess! It was long and boring (I'm going to write it all in my journal later) and horrible to watch. DD1 and DD2 were trying to please him, having far too much pressure put on them, having a wedge driven between them, and then he shouted at them for getting silly and giggly. They laughed at him!!! Xmas Shock But he left the room a moment later and dd2 burst into loud hysterical tears, so I wonder if the laughter was really an emotional release. She then went and clung onto him again. It was like watching a case study of traumatic bonding.

TryBreatheTwinkleFly · 27/12/2012 23:05

charlotte so Sad re the chess story. Your poor little poppet. Things will get better for her, because she's got you Smile

giveitago · 28/12/2012 11:59

charolotte - that sounds awful.

DH has energy for other people. He took a young worker to the hospital the other day (good on him), and he helped a schoolgirl who came crying into the restaurant where he works trying to hide from bullies, got rid of the bullies and then calmed this girl down until her mum came for her. So he does know right from wrong and that's probably why I'm so hurt that he actively chooses to be foul and is deliberately lazy with ds.

Like you the more remote dh is the more ds tries to please him. Your kids could have been laughing with nervousness.

At least ds and I alone today so having a chilled and no pressure day. HOpe you all having a good day.

TisILeclerc · 28/12/2012 12:05

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TryBreatheTwinkleFly · 28/12/2012 12:14

GiveItaGo my fw exactly like that- always being the hero for others but cba for me or mine.

I've realised the alien smileys are the phone's not mumsnet's! They're normal on the laptop. Sorry completely irrelevant Grin hope you're all ok and surviving.

My OH has gone to work today so nice and peaceful here-though ds had tantrum, I was able to deal with it using time out, calm adult voice etc, instead of panicking because fw would take over and scream, threaten and / or smackHmm totally unnecessary. Dcs calm now, just playing beautifully with their Xmas toys Smileseeing flat at 3.

ChristmasTreegles · 28/12/2012 12:21

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TryBreatheTwinkleFly · 28/12/2012 12:44

Hi thanks Treagles! However had to postpone till Monday but looking forward to that now!

ponygirlchristmas · 28/12/2012 15:03

Try, I was looking for the alien smileys and was quite disappointed i couldn't find them! Xmas Grin

MY FW was very good at seeming to be a wonderful caring person - he is a teacher, full of stories about finding the good in tykes and tearaways but skirted over how he shouted at them so much that they were sometimes reduced to tears. He could also sometimes be like that with his own DCs - would always sit and help his DDs or DS1 with their homework when it was something he was interested in helping with, would spend time on projects for the family like making a wooden garden bench --rather than doing the jobs that actually needed doing. What a great guy, eh?

I have DS1 back! Xmas Grin House is immediately much noiser and messier though! So much for all the clearing and sorting and decluttering I've been doing, it's back to square one...
Anyway. I now need to bite the bullet and talk to DS1 about not seeing FW any more. I just don't know how to approach it, or what to say. I thought I would see if any of you lovely ladies of the mighty commune had any ideas. I'm just too close to this to be able to see or think clearly. My only thought is that perhaps I could sit him down and explain that things with me and FW are not going work out so we wont ever be going back to our house to live. But how do I tell him that he wont be seeing FW any more? How do I say it so that it's the least hurtful it can be? I've arranged for his best friend to come and play for the day on Monday, when DS2 next goes to see his dad, but I can't just keep fudging it, I need to tell him so he can, in FW's own lovely words, 'accept it and deal with it'.

TheSilveryTinsellyPussycat · 28/12/2012 15:39

As it is FW's decision, shouldn't he be the one telling? (although I know it's not as straightforward as that)

PrincessFionne · 28/12/2012 18:59

nodding in agreement with silvery on that one Pony - down to FW to tell that one, equally see that might be difficult to achieve in this situation!

Have been lurking from time to time, sorry not been up to adding much to the usual good supply of support on here, have read of difficulties and feeling for the plight of those struggling at the moment.

Despite things, on the surface, going on well, just voiceless about it all right now and although going thro the motions of xmas, tearful over the years of the way i've/we've lived. For instance, just went out with friends and kids to the pics, and part way thro found myself reflecting on everything again and started crying in the pics (not that anyone noticed - but then used to that, as nonone ever noticed ever, whther in a relationship or not , but I think some of that is how difficult I find it to express this stuff to anyone). Just tired of it right now. One of the hardest things is that noone understands this stuff atall, and its so hard to verbalise.

I am upset that exFW will never realise his abhorrent behaviour or have any acceptance of the damage done and continued now, the lying, and rejections of anything from me; everything possible done to be bloody-minded frankly and ignore any requests. I know I have to learn to deal with this, as we all have. Maybe its just harder right now with xmas an' all.