Is this too creepy to tolerate? [WARNING: extreme subject matter]

[Halfway]

I'm posting on behalf of my best friend (for real, she is sat beside me but is not familiar with Mumsnet).

She has recently begun dating a new guy (for a couple months), whom she has known for over ten years as a friend, albeit mostly long distance as he works and lives long periods abroad. He is also Chinese (only relevant because I am genuinely unsure as to whether there are any cultural differences that might make his confession less bizarre than it sounds to me).

He has confessed to her that his ultimate fantasy about intimacy involves eating someone (albeit only ever with their consent).

He says he has never actually eaten part of anyone, but fantasizes about finding someone who would consent to giving him small pieces of flesh (that would not overly harm the person), that he could cook and perhaps even share with them.

Now, she tells me all this in a very relaxed (almost flippant) way, and I can't help but sit here and inwardly think !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

She tells me that in her opinion it is no worse than people who fantasize about whipping/strangling each other, and that although it is freaky, the important thing is that he has no wish to do anything without someone else's wholehearted participation.

So now I am uncertain as to whether I really am being a bit intolerant (and judgemental), or if there is something about this particular fantasy that is just too dangerous (and creepy) to tolerate.

Mumsnet jury opinions needed! Many thanks.

Oh, and I started a profile on informedconsent.co.uk so thank you very much for that suggestion. It won't let me post for 3 days after creating a profile but I intend to do so.

I can actually handle very robust views and disagreements for the most part. I just got triggered accidentally (the not stopping when I asked them to), and wasn't prepared for that in particular. I posted here because I wanted my friend to get a sense of where 'normal' lies, and could only do that with a lot of broad opinions given very quickly.

I'm really glad she isn't going away with him! Maybe she's starting to realize that this whole situatiom isn't right.

Serial killers are (obviously) psychotic. Even they are usually not weird enough to actually eat their victims. Those that do reach a new level of horror.

That is all your friend needs to think about. If a crazed killer thinks it is too depraved then it probably is.

I would tell the police, if she won't you should. You don't know if he may have come to their attention before.

Hope you are feeling a bit stronger OP, some people do like to make all threads about them at the expense of others.

Have you ever met the man in question OP? I was just wondering if you had how he came accross.

@ShirleyRots

Rebecca. When did you start suspending threads?

I really, REALLY love that.

Hi Shirley,

Apols for the hijack OP.

This is all part of the bigger plan to try and make things more transparent.

See Justine's post here

Glad you like it.

You can only do so much for your friend, if she is determined on a certain course. You're not responsible for her.

But I suspect that you've already helped her and protected her far more than it feels like now. I think she's just gone off to process it all alone.

I think I know exactly what you mean by her (and to some extent you?) needing to get a sense of where "normal" is. If she is someone who doesn't tend to match up to "normal" on many spectrums, and in fact finds "normal" threatening and wrong for herself in some contexts, then she's not going to be instantly persuaded to think differently on being confronted with "normal". It sets off a sort of stubborn reaction in one, I think. But I think/hope she will process it, and see that a bit of "normal" in this particular context is totally appropriate and necessary. If she is someone who doesn't open up a great deal, it is natural for her to do this processing alone.

No worries Rebecca, I'm actually a little grateful for the hijack as it lightens the mood (and I'm curious too). Thanks for the information, and your intervention.

Was posting a comment when thread was suspended,

Thought that Halfway if you were going to have thread deleted then to save it so that you can think through and/or talk through others opinions with your friend, ignoring those poking fun obviously.

I decided to comment & give OP benefit of doubt because although the subject matter is extreme I have had friends who have done things (not this) they would never have dreamed of (maybe in a nightmare) when co-erced by an abusive partner.

Has she ever had counselling for her self-harm issues? Is it something she might consider? because it seems a bit tied up in this. I think sometimes being depressed/having very low self esteem can make someone feel that they will do 'anything' to feel something, IYSWIM.

yes, thank god she is not going away with him. It's so sad that these people always seem to find the most vulnerable to try out their fantasies on. I'm very concerned she goes along with it, even in a small way. You're a good friend Halfway, I hope she knows that.

We do both need reminding where 'normal' is, quite frequently. Both she and I have had very abusive relationships, stemming from abusive childhoods (don't they always).

I've managed to pull out of it mostly, and try very hard to surround myself with only people who are good for me. But I have a few friends who are relics from the past so to speak, and remain damaged in ways that I have managed to heal for myself.

O holds down a mostly productive life now. She has had extensive counselling in the past, no longer self-harms (unless you count heavy smoking/drinking which she still does), and is usually pretty good with boundaries. So good that until recently she has pushed potential boyfriends away for the most trivial things.

I've been trying to help her relax a bit and let in people who have minor flaws that aren't likely to help her... and now this. To say I feel somewhat responsible for her current thinking she should tolerate this is an understatement.

Argh, that should have read "minor flaws that aren't likely to hurt her"

Was also in the middle of posting when thread was suspended.

If he wants to slice skin off and cook it he won't be happy with eating bits of skin round the nail for long before he is pushing for more.

How far is your friend willing to go? I'd be worried with your friends history of self harm that if she becomes unwell going from cutting to removing skin might not seem such a big jump to her iyswim. Or at least he may coherse her into that way of thinking.

Are you sure she isn't curious about it herself? When people have an extreme fetish they tend to find like minded people on sites .

How can anyone have a fetish like that that isn't an extreme dehumanising or objectifying of the partner? You really could not do more to reduce someone to the status of an animal or thing than to regard them as food. That may not be obvious in the courting phase, but it's clearly there. She could not engage with this without risking her health and becoming disfigured. The whole power dynamic is so skewed.

And even if that is not the case, a relationship with a man with this strong and extreme obsession would run the risk of becoming all about the fetish. Good treatment if shes indulging the fetish and he is happy, bad treatment if she isn't. No room for anything much else, including her needs.

I think the self-harming aspect of it is appealing to her yes. I think she is using this as a reason why it would be ok to do it... because then she's not hurting herself for the sake of hurting herself (but still gets the same release).

She has also in the past expressed some fascination (actually maybe borderline obsession now that I think of it) with vampirism, and the drinking of each other's blood, so I know that she really does 'get' him on some level, and I 'get' both of them on a lesser level.

She agreed with me this morning that it could go to far, and would be dangerous if it did, but seems to think she is strong enough to say when enough is enough, and almost wants my support in keeping an eye on her so she can explore it.

In terms of where the fetish comes from, I'll try to explain how I am able to conceive of it (friend isn't here any more to get her direct take on it, but we do 'get' each other in many ways).

The idea is one of taking the person into yourself in a way that is profound. To actually eat and digest someone else's physical manifestation 'binds' them to you somehow psychologically... as in, they become part of you... forever.

Believe me, I know it comes from a very 'far out' place in the mind. But me, my friend, and seemingly this guy do have very 'far out' minds as a result of extreme lives and upbringings. Its hard for us to cut off 'one of our own' so to speak, and tell them they are bad and dangerous, and not to be engaged with, without really good reasons.

Oh, and no I haven't met him yet Strawhatpirate, but I really want to so that I can get a sense of him myself, and am urging her to have us all meet up (somewhere public obviously), if she is intent on pursuing this.

I've seen his picture. He looks fine (but then, don't they all).

been reading the papers?
out of there fast and report it to the police.

You are in no way responsible! He presumably knows her history so he picked her for obvious reasons IMO. I think he's groomed her in a very insidios way by trying to make the whole thing seem romantic and special. Some people have a fear of the mundane IFYKWIM and I think he's seen that in her and is playing to it by making it seem exciting out of the norm.

Good grief Halfway! I hope your friend is able to see how dangerous this is for her. Glad she has you to help. Sorry I can't add anything more useful.

I understand that you 'get' it but it is so dangerous. I suggest you print off this thread and give it to her to read but reassure her that you are making no judgements. Ask her to promise to tell you if she does do it and then you can keep an eye on her iyswim.

An ideal solution would be for her to run a mile obviously that's not going to happen.

You do sound like the ideal friend to O though as you have been a bit experimental yourself.

This thread is the most shocking thread I've ever read on mn. Please can you edit the title as I really feel quite grim after reading the op,no idea it was that freaky. I haven't read the whole thing,I am absolutely flabbergasted this is on here.

People who perceive themselves as outsiders frequently make the mistake of assuming that other outsiders are essentially just like them, and that they are part of the same "gang" somehow and need to stick together.

This is an error of logic. There is no reason whatever why it should be true.

In my experience men like him operate like this:

"You are so much more special than those vanilla girls but if you do this for me I will really love you and btw a lot of people will tell you its wrong but who cares about them because they are mundanes and we there morality doesn't apply to us anyway"

I'm sorry Icelollycraving, you're right... perhaps more of a warning should have been in order. Is there a way I can edit the title, or I have to get MNHQ to do it?

I also want to take a second to attempt to publically defuse any anger against the earlier posters who accidentally caused hurt. I have pm'ed the main people involved individually, and am certain they did not mean to cause harm.

The misunderstandings arise in part from their having very innocent minds (who cannot easily conceive of these sorts of things actually happening), and for that they are not to blame, and I am grateful that such innocence still exists in the world.

I worry that although your friend thinks she's strong enough to say "stop" when she thinks it's going too far, that he will mentally have already gone too far and will not be able to/want to stop. I am very worried about your friend's safety here.