The kids winge and cry

[BurntToastSmell]

I have two very demanding young children. A toddler (2 years) and a baby (9 months). They winge all day long (I really mean: all. day. long). Aside from look after the kids on my own all day (7am till 6pm) I have to keep the house clean, make their food, make sure all the dishes are washed, make sure all the clothes are clean, take them to baby & toddler groups, AND run an online business. I'm at the end of my tether because of the constant winging all day long. My friend has suggested using an ipod and turning the volume up full so I can't hear their winging. Is this reasonable? I don't know how I would get all my chores done otherwise, but I feel terrible. I read that if you leave young children to winge/cry, you can lower their self esteem and make them more anxious (due to elevated levels of cortisol). I really hate leaving them to cry but I don't know what else I can do? I don't want to put them into daycare/nursery until they are 3.

I can't begin to tell you how angry this thread makes me.

Put bluntly - your husband is abusive. He has a huge wage (and 52k IS a huge wage) and pays you a pittance of that whilst taking control of all the finances himself and not "allowing" you to use the tumble drier which would make your life easier. He is emotionally abusive because he puts you down and is quite frankly about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

You know I'd never normally suggest it but you would probably be better off financially being a single parent on benefits. I did it for 6 years when I left my ex husband for similar things. The relief of not having to worry about someone else was overwhelming.

I am now remarried and we manage on a salary of 14k and tax credits. I am a sahm. We put all our money into a joint account and we have the same amount of spending money. We are a team. We both have access to the online accounts and we both have debit cards for the accounts so we can spend as we wish within reason.

Your priorities are completely wrong. If the parents are so judgemental at your groups then stop going to them and find some other ones. You don't need people like that. Incidentally I tend to find people with real money are the least judgemental in terms of children's clothes as they realise it really doesn't matter. I buy everything for ds 4 months from eBay. Nice stuff but he's in it all of 2 minutes so seriously what is the point ?

I used to work in marketing earning a salary similar to your dhs when my dd was small and I used to buy her lots of toys but all she really wanted was my attention.

I'd seriously consider leaving your dh as he is so emotionally and financially abusive and look to start enjoying your children. They are only little once.

£52k? And you get £200 a month to keep youand the kids in clothes, entertained etcc? It's not a bad amount for doing all that but in relation to his disposable income it's massively unfair. Does he deliberately keep you out of all financial things? This isn't sounding very healthy by the way.

Do not give up your business.

In fact why are you even letting him disallow you using the tumble? It's there I take it. Stick a load in, get all the damp washing that's about dried and use it when you need to.

I think you are going to the 'wrong type' of groups if children's outfits are scrutinised and you are under pressure to buy toys!.
My kids were usually more interested in the cardboard boxes they came in, than toys themslves. But then, we were, and still are , a low income family, although we have always worked, (other than redundancy 4 times,on DH's part, when the kids were small). My kids have had to learn that they can't have everything they want,because we just can,t afford it. It is upsetting when they want something they've seen other children with,but we've always hung on for birthdays and Christmas for bigger items.

Think your DH is wrong for saying 'other people manage'. No...most people (the ones I know, anyway) muddle through.

he's loaded and won't let you use the tumble drier??!! wtaf?? i would tell him laundry is his job if he thinks he can get it dry in this fucking weather without a TD. I don't have one and it's a bloody nightmare!!
Bollocks to him, twat.

I have just read the rest of the thread and have to agree the more I read the more it sounds like you are in an abusive relationship. Please just take time to think about it - he is controlling, unsupportive and from what he has been telling you about finances a liar.

My instinct having read all this us that you and your family may well be a lot happier if you worked say three days a week, employed by someone else, with your kids in nursery or with a childminder for a bit. Honestly. Your world has shrunk so much that it revolves around the confined life of a small flat surrounded by wet washing. The children are picking up on the tension and you have lost your social compass as to what normal lives are like. You are making poor judgements about your children's needs based on the somewhat puritanical model of child rearing a self-selected group of professional writers continually put forward in the public domain. You are not considering other points of view sufficiently because you are over-valuing the opinion of anyone who has made it into print or into the news with their personal views, however poorly grounded.

For the record, poor television is bad for children. A dose of CBeebies every day (say an hour or so) promotes learning, particularly if the parent is in the room engaging with the child as they watch. However as the US doesn't have CBeebies, but instead more market-led stiff, this view is not represented in much of the data.

For the record, poor childcare is bad for children. Good childcare is good for children, which is why the government is funding it from 3, soon to be the age of 2. It's a no-brainer, frankly.

For the record, children of mothers who work outside the home overall do better at school that those whose mothers don't, particularly girls with professional mothers, which is where the effect is most pronounced.

I have derived all the above from mainstream research. But what you need to do is get a grip and give yourself permission to run your life your way, not how others think you should.

Excuse IPhone typing!!'

You need a serious talk with your husband so you have the figures for where all the money's going. Then move to a joint account. I wouldn't say he was financially abusive - except if he refuses either of the above...

Also, I personally think Oliver James is a prat, but I can't believe even he would say 3 mornings a week childcare for a 2 year old was harmful. The government is bringing in 15 hours a week free preschool for 2 year olds (may be just for poorer families?) because of its benefits for child development.

He is financially abusive if he earns 52k, gives you a fraction of that and won't let you use an electrical appliance that you BOTH own in your own home because it's supposedly costs too much... and you are clearly worried about going against him.

That's not a loving relationship, that's living in a prison.

It's Kathy Silva who has done the big work in this area. Oliver James is 'just' a pundit, he hasn't run any of the big studies into this. Three mornings a week for a two year old is not only a good idea, there's a case for saying it's neglectful keeping them away from making friends with other adults and children in this way at that age.

I agree with Boffin and others who are saying you need to take control of your life, Burnt.

BUT, everyone, Burnt is depressed and overwhelmed and maybe in an abusive relationship too, and it's not easy just to 'get a grip' in those circumstances. Let's be gentle, please :)

I've been there (though with just one child) and remember how dis-empowered you feel. The way out and up is to feel better about yourself, and then you start to have some energy for making the changes you need to make.

Burnt, what do you do that's nice for you? That you enjoy and choose to do? If you don't do anything like that atm (and it can be hard when you've got small children) when was the last time you did?

He is totally bullshitting you about money. DH and I live in a similar part of the country to you (ie an area where, if you spend a lot of money on a house, it's huge), have a three bedroom house with a mortgage, and I earn about £200 a month (ie practically nothing) while DH earns about £29k. We don't struggle at all for money. I can run the dryer whenever I want, although I do try to avoid it as it is expensive to run. But then we have a garden so on a sunny day I can hang things out - if I had no garden the dryer would run practically every day. Laundry just needs to be done, there's no point in scrimping over it, it's not a luxury. If I were you I would stop doing his laundry, let him do it, and see how against the dryer he is then!

I think £200 a month spending money is actually quite reasonable - I'm pretty sure I spend less than this a month on clothes/toys/days out, although that can vary depending on what's going on. The issue is not the amount of spending money, but the fact that he doles it out to you like you're a child and you don't have access to more if you need it. I run the finances in my house, we have a joint account, and we both just spend what we want (within reason). That's the way it should be in a friendly, kind marriage IMO. Anything else smacks of meanness and suspicion, which isn't a good foundation for a partnership.

I agree with the others about toddler groups by the way - a lot of our kids turn up to our group looking a bit crusty from breakfast and no one gives a hoot. Why would they? What sort of weirdo cares about what clothes other people's children wear?

I really feel for the OP. I believe from another post you live in a tiny flat and your DP leaves really early. Could you move somewhere that would make you happier? I don't know much about the NE but I believe houses are a lot cheaper than down here and on £50k you should be able to rent somewhere bigger?

I suppose I haven't really felt overwhelmed with children, or rather, if I do I give myself a nightie day and slob around the house for a bit to recover, while the kids pootle around nearby. CBeebies is fantastic for such days. Maybe the OP could try having a completely lazy day full of TV and magazines and grapes and tumble drying and see if it feels good?

Another thing I did one with two tinies in tow was to go on an outing with them every single day - I had a National Trust pass and would head off with a packed lunch and a changing bag to a different park/museum/stately home/walk/whatever from about 10-2 or 3 and just be. The kids got a lot of fresh air and attention from old ladies in cafes, etc, and I got a bit of intellectual stimulation.

Burnt, I've been watching this thread with interest, and also hope you find a solution to what is clearly an unhappy situation.

I suspect you're not going to change your mind re childcare, no matter how sensible it would be, but just in case you do concede two or three mornings a week might be manageable ... can I ask what your online business is? Just in general terms, and specifically is it something that is purely a money-spinner, or something which is likely to pay off later down the road in terms of keeping your hand in a particular field of work? That should definitely have a bearing on your decision.

FWIW, our household's dual income is about the same as yours, and I also have about £200 a month to spend on me and DS, which is more than enough (I spend plenty of that on me too) - and we also don't use the tumble drier as it's too expensive. But then, we live in a 3-bed house in a very expensive part of the SE. It is possible that your DH's balancing the books is very reasonable, so don't go in with all guns blazing, but you do need to be able to see what's going on. DH and I regularly sit down and go through incomings and outgoings together. And he'd never dream of comparing me to other wives, or dictate finances to me. Or climb out of the window in the morning come to that though

It sounds to me like the oldest is bored and the youngest has other things going on, wanting to crawl, teething etc. if you say the 2 year old is better but the 9 month old is worse I suggest you buy a sling. My daughter (now 15 months) was very whingy and constantly unsettled. On her bad days I would put her in the sling on my back and clean up. In fact I still do (and she weighs 2 stone!) so no excuses about them being heavy, you get used to it. Get a decent sling though, not a crotch dangling baby bjorn. Get a beco or rose and rebellion. It will save your sanity I promise you!

We own a flat and at the moment didn't want to sell it, so we let it out and rent a house.

It's about 150 a month more expensive but worth each and every penny.

Your joint income is 50k? That should be more than enough really, though it does depend if you have finance etc that eats into it.

Honestly, the difference has been great, I don't feel I have to go out each day.

I also read an earlier post about nursery staff, I really don't agree with that. All the staff I have come across have been perfectly able and they have a love for working with children, boundless energy and work with him in crafts etc that I wouldn't think to do at home.

I think everyone MAY be being too hard on DH. Until the op knows all the finances, nobody knows what outgoings there are. She does need to find out. There may be debts/ holidays/furniture costs etc. £52k is a lot of money but £200 is not unreasonable to spend on the children and herself. If DH was really mean, then it would be a lot less than that.

He is not unwilling to help out either. He does work, cook and shop. He also climbs out of the window to avoid waking the children and has them for several hours at the weekend. That is not an uncaring/abusive husband. I do think he needs a reality check though. He clearly doesn't understand how hard work they are day in day out and most importantly he doesn't appreciate the emotional state the op is in at the moment. It is not impossible to cope with housework and whinging children (trying to work as well is a different matter) and he is not unreasonable to think she should be able to do that. However he is failing to take into account that she is, or nearly is, very depressed. He needs to up his game and give her more support. You need to talk to him op, to make him see the seriousness of the situation. But both of you need to understand it is impossible to work whilst looking after two small children with no childcare or help in the house.

What does he think about you trying to work too?
What are his views on childcare.

I can understand him not wanting a cleaner/using the tumble dryer, but if you continue to work, you can't do everything. What does he think you should do?

Jointly you both need to look at finances and come up with a plan to make your lives easier. You do not need more than £200. You may NEED to use the tumbledryer. How are you both going to compromise/ adjust your spending to make for the happiest household. OP you may have to not worry about expensive toys/clothes. You may need to cut down your food bill as you say that is high but he also needs to make changes too.

Communicate with your husband.

My dp goes nuts about lights on and tumble dryers to be fair.

Climbs out of the window?

I can't believe you live in South Tyneside. I'd assumed you were in central London to be even thinking about whether to put the tumble dryer on. In a 2 bedroom flat in South Tyneside, however bad your mortgage deal, you should have a lot more spare money than you have access to. So what if you like ready meals and diet coke? Even if you're buying one for you every day in M and S, your grocery bill is not taking up that much of your income. You can easily afford a house with a garden. You can afford to buy a dishwasher.

I think your lack of access to money and control over the household finances. Have you noticed how many of the things he takes responsibility for involve controlling the money? Why don't you shop online? It doesn't matter how many people on here say £200 is fine, it's not a fair proportion of your household income. Is your name on the mortgage?

Have a look at this and bare in mind that in South Tyneside average household income is about 11k lower than the national averages:

www.guardian.co.uk/society/datablog/interactive/2012/jun/22/how-wealthy-you-compared

£52K is a HUGE amount for a family to be living on, especially in your area, regardless of whether one person of six people are bringing it in! My love, he is bullshitting you BADLY. The majority of the Uk's families live on less than half that and yes, that is also with both parents bringing in wages. In fact, £25K is massively over the poverty line also!

He is financially abusive. Seriously.

BurntToast - no, plenty of families survive on an income of 25k a year.(Especially in the North) One working, one part time, actually. I'm a bit saddened but alas not shocked that more affluent mumsnetters are ignorant of this fact.

As your dh is on a good salary it's a no brainer isn't it?? - start researching good nurseries in your area and get them in one a couple of days a week if you want to continue your business. I would because i wouldn't want to be totally dependent on your husband.
Or if you do stop your business get them in a good nursery anyway for half the week. Chores are chores - meaningless, repetitive and never ending. Maybe get a cleaner in for a few hours a week.

Then you can concentrate on your kids and you will miss them like crazy and actually look forward to collecting them from nursery. They will make new friends and you can then associate with them instead of the arses at that tots group - and cahnge your tots group!