He's just been to a nude lap dancing bar :(

[RunnyBum]

H just back from nude lap dancing bar, he has been on stag dos before and he knows I hate it. I'm gutted, he says I should forget this one "mistake" as he (allegedly) didn't has a private dance as he knows I would hate that. He claims he was just curious (inspite having been before and knowing all about it!!) Being in front of a naked woman that isnt me, for kicks just feels like cheating on some level. Oh and he wasn't on a stag tonight just out with a friend.

Found out as I Where's My Iphone'd him as he was meant to just be in our town, and I thought he'd be heading home.

We're meant to be going away on a romantic break in a few weeks, but a the minute I don't want him near me :(

How would u deal with this?

But Larry, that almost forgives rape as it's an evolved urge? Way too dangerous a field for me I'm afraid, evo psych.

In what way exactly is buying a drink in return for conversation or paying for a woman to degrade herself sexually in front of your face or buying your wife a handbag in return for a blowjob consensual? It is entitled it isn't consensual and if you can't see how that is immoral that's why you can't see how it is related to rape and is part of rape culture, because you, like many other people are absolving yourself of your responsibilities to other humans using arguments bullshit about "evo psych" rape apologism and victim blaming and "everyone else does it".

Larry may want to think his behaviour in visiting lap dancing clubs can be justified by boiling human behaviour down to what gorillas do - but I don't.

And not all other men behave like gorillas either Larry. It's no justification for such ridiculous opinions as yours, that reduce sexual relationships to a financial transaction. You try to justify your own poor behaviour as being somehow 'instinctive' and 'what most men do' - but believe me, a lot human beings have come a long way during the evolutionary process.

Perhaps you have been left behind somewhere along the evolutionary road? Back with the apes.

I've read Lazzer's pretty questionable views on consent as well - on the 'sex whilst asleep' threads. He repeated a fair number of dubious rape myths on that thread.

Offred,

"I think the idea of consent (legally) is misunderstood by a lot of people - it means agreement by choice. Someone may agree by choice to work in the sex industry although often those choices are influenced by other factors and even if you do choose it of your own free will, the fact you are being paid to work in the sex industry means you cannot actually really consent to sex acts. Fundamentally to enjoy porn or lapdancing or prostitution you have to ignore or not care that consent is not important in that sexual experience. Sometimes the way that is done is by pretending it is "all a bit of fun"."

I think this rather garbled paragraph shows that you do not understand the legal meaning of consent. It is construed in a narrow form. A prostitute is legally consenting if she consents to the act at the time, regardless of whether money changes hands. And it is also defined with relation to the mind of the man as in: "could he reasonably consider consent had been given". That is the law. You may argue that the law should be changed but you cannot argue with where the law stands now.

As to "hunt in packs", that draws a picture to me of a bunch of lads (or girls) out on the pull, to you it paints a picture of potential rapists.

We were actually discussing lap dancing, though, which to me consists of women dancing and chatting (and not touching), not blow jobs or full sex.

Sabrina,

Rubbish. Sex with someone while asleep is undoubtedly rape. End of. I have always said that. If you want to link to a post of mine which suggested otherwise, I would love to see it.

you'd better read this then larry

But Offred, Larry has to tell you what you think. He's doing all us women a favour by visiting MN to enlighten us all - he's edjucating us. On any subject from children's health, through washing machines, to the sex industry it seems.

What's is called when men carefully explains to women how they should think, again? There's a name for it I'm sure...

It isn't garbled larry, I'm saying the concept of consent doesn't apply to the sex trade and it takes a special abusive dehumanising type of person who equates himself with an ape to see that as a normal and acceptable part of sex.

Larry - I would Sweetheart, but they were all deleted by MNHQ.

You consulted your wife on the subject - and claimed she agreed with you - ring any bells?

"And not all other men behave like gorillas either Larry. It's no justification for such ridiculous opinions as yours, that reduce sexual relationships to a financial transaction. You try to justify your own poor behaviour as being somehow 'instinctive' and 'what most men do' - but believe me, a lot human beings have come a long way during the evolutionary process. "

You assume every one of my posts is about me. I am actually capable of thinking about a subject without an entirely egocentric view based on personal experience. I am middle aged with two little children and have zero interest in going to a lap dancing bar, or even a bar right now. I am normally in bed by 10PM. The last lap dancing bar I attended was at a stag, about 12 years ago. Prior to that, I have probably been about 10 times in my life over 5-10 years. I am not a habitue of the scene.

Nor do I buy my wife handbags in exchange for BJs. We have a reasonable and always consensual sex life, given two children of 3 and under.

I have, in the past, bought a girl a drink in a bar, got chatting and sometimes it has, and sometimes it has not, gone further. My only expectation was either a civilised "no thanks" in return for the offer or a "yes please" plus five mins of conversation. Again, I think this is well within the norms of "decent" human behaviour but does illustrate a very traditional exchange. Is that money for company or is it merely a polite introduction? I struggle to believe that does not happen any more or that it is now 50/50 men and women buying one another drinks.

I am, however, a man and I also like reading about human behaviour and have witnessed a fair bit in my life. In addition, I have found these boards a revelation in many ways and they have influenced the way I perceive that some women think about certain issues.

"But Offred, Larry has to tell you what you think."

Is that different from what every other poster does? If you don't want to read it, don't. Hell, why come on an internet forum at all?

I am a very unprolific poster. I often go weeks without posting and am very rarely on for more than a couple of hours at a time. Unlike Offred, for instance.

Larry - at least your views don't get ignored. [hwink]

Larry - you admitted upthread that you used to go to lap dancing clubs. Although, apparently you were all very gentlemanly about it

And you were the one who brought gorillas into the whole thing - bringing evolutionary behaviour into a thread about lap dancing is, imo, pseudo-scientific babble that doesn't further your argument one jot.

Sabrina,

You may call it pseudo scientific babble. I think the thesis that men and women being different is entirely dependent on conditioning and "the patriarchy" completely fails to stand up to any serious scientific scrutiny, yet it is pervasive on these boards.

And I admitted again that I have been. I also explained the context, the frequency and what actually happened. Of course, that is the bit which is easier to ignore. It is far more comfortable to think in black and white rather than shades of grey.

We're all aware that you think buying women's time with a drink is decent behaviour larry I don't think you need to reiterate it. Lets go back to the original point you made; that women who object to lapdancing clubs are objectively unreasonable for seeing it as a dealbreaker and therefore will reduce the number of men they have available to them for marriage.

On this thread.

Where the op made it clear to her partner that she wasn't ok with it and, knowing that, he went anyway, in secret. That does rather imply you are saying the same as Kerry that men "have to" do this perfectly reasonable and legitimate activity in secret because their wives are unreasonable to object to it otherwise what is the point in saying it. Which is consensual how?

Respectful how?

Offred,

I chose to reiterate it because I am curious as to who would take issue with it and whether they think it does not occur or is somehow abusive?

I do think that it is a low threshold for a deal breaker, especially in a marriage with children. I am not saying that someone should be thrilled if their partner goes or don't have a right to feel uncomfortable with it. And if they were off on their own every week, I could see that it might be a dealbreaker. But in the context of a bunch of men going together on a stag once in a blue moon (I think just once in the OP's case) I think it would be a crazy reason to split up. JMO.

And it isn't that I don't want to read you telling me what I think and saying I've said things I haven't and thinking having this imaginary argument narrative you have going on is an "interesting debate". I don't want you to write my arguments for me larry. You seem to be thinking this follows a script, attributing misandry and feminism to me treating me as "oh you're one of those women" and pre-empting arguments you have decided I will make which is an extremely controlling and disrespectful thing to do and is not at all the same thing as trying to interpret what I mean from what I say.

Offred,

I suspect that your last post has a great deal to do with me:

a/ disagreeing with you

b/ being a man.

I do read your posts and try to understand what you are saying. I do address the points within them. If you feel I have misunderstood, then you can correct me.

It does, however, make me laugh when compared to the way people absurdly extrapolate and deliberately misinterpret my views to make them as offensive as possible and then further assume that they know what I am "really like" as a person (and you are one of the worst offenders on that score).

It is nothing to do with what you think though larry can you not see that? It is to do with the op's right to self determination and choice in her own relationship and whether different people think it is reasonable to be upset or see it is a deal breaker is completely and entirely irrelevant to the fact that the op's partner knew how the op felt and chose to disrespect her. Are you saying that is ok? That her oh gets to decide for her what her boundaries are? Would you accept that from your wife?

But Larry, who are you to judge that in other people's relationships? And what does the 'context' in which you visited lap dancing clubs have to with it? You were still there, you are still here trying to justify it, normalise it, and saying wives with children should just put up with it.

It is not up to you to tell a woman with children that they shouldn't split up for any particular reason - it is up to the woman in the relationship to define what her thresholds are.

And for some women, the thought of men visiting a lap dance club, having a private dance, having some other woman being paid to mash her boobs into her husbands face is just one step too far.

You are very passive aggressive larry. You have not understood my posts and you have at least three times attributed arguments and qualities to me that I have not and would not make.

Offred,

If the OP did not want others' views, she could have booted her partner without reference to a MN thread. She was actually canvassing opinions on what is acceptable and what is not.

I think I said upthread that what is defined as a dealbreaker and what is considered controlling behaviour has to be with reference to society and other's opinions. If my wife slept with another man but decided that was not a dealbreaker, I may take issue (though I would try to forgive and move on if it was a one off). On the other hand, if my wife spoke and flirted with a man on a night out with friends and I decided that was a dealbreaker, I would be being controlling and unreasonable. Lapdancing is somewhere in between and, in a sense, what this thread is all about.

You can't disagree with me larry because you have never understood what I am saying and have instead attributed various arguments that I haven't made to me.

It is nothing to do with you being a man, it's to do with you seeming to equate maleness with abuse of women.