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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

does it ever work with a man who's 'Out Of Your League' in many aspects? (sorry, long)

283 replies

allchangeplease · 23/09/2012 18:35

I'm wondering how much does confidence matter in these situoations? If you had success with a man you (secretly) looked up to, was down to sheer confidence, or was it flattery admiration that worked?
A bit of a backstory. I've contacted this man on a dating site, I REALLY like everything he said, the photos (no Greek God but really appeals to me), he also (!) included a photo which was published in eligible bachelor section of a glossy albeit years ago Shock, though he doesn't look as good now - he made a funny comment about that, and if you are wondering, it wasn't that that made me interested, I noticed the fact later in his long intro. He is obviously talented, he is a publushed poet, he states that he is comfortable financially and I just love his sense of humour AND his voice recording. He sounds kind and not dull like so many online guys. He also does sound very confident behind the humour. I was like that Shock as normally I find very very few men online interesting and worth contacting and none so far compared for me. I know, I know, he may be an arsehole with issues in RL, as he never got married and he is approaching 50. But I want to meet him at least.
He hasn't replied to me first time round, so I wrote to him again Blush after listening to his voice once more, thinking that it was unusual for him not even to ask questions, even though I haven't ticked some of his 'potential partner' boxes, but normally men like my photos (nothing revealing or overtly sexy) and at least attempt some dialogue. I felt I wanted him even more as he is a challenge. He said he'd prefer a woman with English as home language while I'm foreign but spent all my grown up life here, he also said she needs to be in or near London when I'm not, though I do visit quite often. He also wants someone with a good stable social circle which really I don't have as i didn't study here and just have a few friends, not a 'network'. When i wrote to him i explained that I know I'm not 'perfect' and then asked him, the second time, whether he is sure he doesn't want to meet. He now replied with an auto reply that he will write to me when he subscribes. It's very easy to sunscribe so you can send mesages, if anything you can do so for a week for under 10 pounds, it's been two weeks since mu last message and a day or so since his reply. Obviously he is not that keen.
Do you think it's worth pursuaing or eve nmeeting if he does reply? He is a bit on a posh side with his speech and looks, I just worry that English guys like this are really snobsat heart and even if attracted to a woman, just wouldn't see her seriously as LTR partner material? He is not the only example of a man I'm attarcted to but don't 'push it' out of this lack of confidence/cynicism. I always hide the lack of confidence by playing cool if met with lujkewarm response, or with just physical interest, but deep down I want to be braver and try a pushy approach. Did this ever work for you, when yo knew that socially and possibly financially he is of higher status?
Is it worth it or not, as even if you gain his interest you may have to prove yourself for a long time to him and his friends etc.? I do admire Kate for being so thick skinned what with the sniggering from William's friends, before he proposed. Yes, it's nothing like as this 'high up' in my case but on a smaller scale still applies.
If it did work for you, do you think it's because he just liked you and you didn't actually put any effort i.e. luck of the draw, or did the efforts you made paid off, and any advice in this case? Is it justa case of being brazen and forgetting about all the issues?

OP posts:
allchangeplease · 25/09/2012 00:30

world, thank you for trying to help. it's just you criticise (some of which os fair, some less so as I can't relate all my experiences here) but I wish you made actually positive suggestions rather than say 'you'll never attarct one properly'. FWIW I've just attarcted the guy from that social group as I mentioned but he is a bit unusual/alternative and noticeable older, we have deep conversations, it's just uinfortunately don't fancy him (yet?). My point is mainly, I don't get a fair chance, for all you know someone would get serious about me if i had access to their group (incl women) but I just don't, so you can't say they aer not interested if they never jad a chance to be interested. The guys I mentioned who made those direct comments where in their 20s and I was younger then, this wasn't recent (sorry if it read like that). The only recent situations cropped up when I asked a couple of guys out but they happened to be married (both said they were flattered, not recoiled Grin. I've had a relationship wit hone actually, so it wasn't quite true to say none, he was the older controlling guy abd again unusual as he was sucessful without the family help financially and therefore very big headed, he was seriously interested in me, but I couldn't be controlled. But the guys I really like aer the arty types (and I do have that interest in common with them, I meet them through work but not frequently, and most I do meet are married), this is how I get to fantasise. As to pubs/bars, I'd be scared to go to any on my own, not just 'their type', I'm not a big drinker and am quite reserved plus the shy types I like aren't going to approach me in pubs. Yes I can see that the level of fantasy may be high but it's on and off, it's hardly constant. I just thing I'm more confident now and if it presented I would be much more 'know your own value' rather than try to be liked by one of these men. I do get attracted to other types of men too Grin.
Thank you for letting me talk, world, and being interested, I feel self indulgent about it now, but somehow it has clarified things in my mind getting it out on the open, it's less of a 'beast' due to the feedback!

OP posts:
ravenAK · 25/09/2012 00:52

So you fancy a bit of Brideshead, basically?

If we were all 20 years younger I'd suggest you enrolled on my Classics BA, it was positively hooching with nice sensitive posh boys.

Meanwhile - this bloke is making it fairly clear he's not interested. Onwards & upwards.

Offred · 25/09/2012 06:36

You will never meet a man who is good for you while you see men as "types" rather than people.

LizLemon007 · 25/09/2012 08:05

allchange, is this the guy who's 16 years older than you? In my very honest opinion that is just too wide an age gap. If you'd met him years ago and there was a genuine attraction despite the age gap it'd be different. The guy I am seeing is a decade older than I am and when I first saw him I thought he was attractive. He was also dressed nicely, he smelled nicely, everybody else there seemed to like him. I didn't have to pull it out of the bag!!! It's just that if I have a moment of analysis paralysis, I do think, wow, how did I get here, dating men ten years older than I am!? If there's a next guy, ideally, I would like him to be a little closer to my own age and I definitely wouldn't go for a wider gap.

The whole public school thing wouldn't float my boat though. I think a lot of those guys think they're gentlemen but they are sexist, a bit racist, they have a sense of entitlement that would baffle most of the rest of the World but is accepted in the UK!

I'd rather a decent, good humoured, reasonably clever guy with a regional accent of some sort. Obviously I do still like a man who can be trusted to dress appropriately and not burp the alphabet backwards when he meets your friends, but, a bona fide 'toff', no, he'd have to break the mold tbh, for me anyway!

My x went to charterhouse. Does that count? he had such a sense of entitlement. He is the one who thought that every sacrifice for parenthood should be mine.

THETrills · 25/09/2012 08:06

If you start to chat to someone on the internet and they are not interested you just have to leave it.

None of this if I was in his group of friends he might fancy me - if you knew each other casually it might turn out that you didn't fancy him.

Just move on.

LizLemon007 · 25/09/2012 08:14

@ worldcitizen, no! i meant posters who looked like they read the original op, took a drive buy swipe and then cruised on to the next thread! i do it myself on other threads tbh!

Alittlestranger · 25/09/2012 08:24

This is one of the oddest threads I've read on MN. The OP talks about her type the way I used to think about indie boys in bands when I was 16...

I'm also struggling to picture this type. I'm sure a lot of my friends must be in/from it but it's so darn specific and seems to extrapolate a few personal slights into a socio-anthropological trend.

I'm also surprised no one's picked up on how the OP talks about the women of this type. She seems to see them as controlling gatekeepers to the man of her dreams.

Where's that list of how to win at online dating? I think someone needs to repost it, maybe with some additions. You can't pursuade someone to like you. OP you have no idea of the reasons for this guy's tastes/preferences/prejudices. Without the benefit of some stunning RL chemistry you're never going to overcome that, and he has no reason to meet with you in real life.

worldcitizen · 25/09/2012 09:52

allchange sorry about you feeling criticised, but I am only writing what I feel and think when reading your OP and there is no criticism as in ridiculing or hurting you intended. None at all Smile

I am sorry, but I cannot give any suggestions or come up with some ideas of how to approach this, as I find this all so odd and almost uncomfortable and feeling something like feeling embarrassed for you. This sounds harsh, maybe but these are the kind of feelings I have with all of this.

allchange you have not had any fling or illicit affair with a married man of that desired group and type, by any chance?
It almost sounds like it.

Also, online dating is an entire different ballgame in itself with all its obstacles, so mybe joining one of those support threads here on MN might be an additional help.
I don't recall writing 'You will never attract one properly', I also do not recall saying 'They are not interested in you'.

I might be too daft, but I am still failing to understand, where you have your connection and common interest with (for you suitable)men of your desired group. I don't get it. You sound miles away from them and you seem putting them on a pedestal.

Offred · 25/09/2012 09:54

I think that is the point world. She wants to improve her social standing by association because she has weird values about class.

worldcitizen · 25/09/2012 10:04

Yes, they are truly weird and odd.
And this has nothing to do with not being Native-British, not at all. 20 years UK of which it is all her adult life, should not be having an issue with this anymore.

Also every society has some form of social strata, and trust me, not fitting in somewhere will it be due to educational background, professional status, financial/wealth reasons, or looks, or your standing in the community, reputation your family has, etc......exists in some form or the other in all societies...

BUT in the UK you have at least lots of folks who don't cherish the ground of anyone supposedly "above" them, rather the opposite, in my experience in the UK the snub can go well the other way around as well and the other person considered not right and not matching as well. There you would not even fit well in the UK with this attitude of yours, you might turn off lots of people Sad

And allchange no-one ever leaves a good impression when lowering yourself and worshipping the grounds of others, really you are demeaning yourself, please be more careful about all this. Thanks

Offred · 25/09/2012 10:29

Yes, that's what I'd recommend: working on self esteem and also looking at people for who they are as individuals rather than "types" or "ideals".

geegee888 · 25/09/2012 14:01

This is all so odd. Trying to reason with the OP is like ploughing through treacle. OP have you thought about cognitive behavioural therapy, as it can help you put things in a better perspective which may make more sense to you?

geegee, I'm not even slightly capable of riding or shooting, really too sensitive and scared of falling off horses/hurting animals. I go for more gentle arty types, not sporty ones. Charities maybe, but how do you get into these? I'd really have to be on a mission though for all the long road this would be!

Then I cannot think why you want to go for posh, arty types, since often they also lead quite a "country" lifestyle and, since people tend to prefer partners with similar interests to themselves, I can't see how you would get along. Even if you had a dog, it might help. Or some friends you could go along to these arty things you mention you currently can't go along to as you don't know anyone. And if you have no other interests, surely theres nothing to stop you getting into the charities sector or whatever?

You do sound very passive and as if you have some romantic notion that you will meet the right man and he will throw himself at you. Its like a teenage thing. The dating world is, for want of a better word, competitive, and I'm failing to see what you can offer a posh, not-too-rich arty man the same age as yourself.

You could widen your criteria and possibly hook an older posh not-too-rich arty type, but you aren't prepared to do that either.

Or why not forget whole class distinction/posh/public school thing and concentrate on finding a decent man with sound values whom you get on with and have things in common?

allchangeplease · 25/09/2012 16:27

geegee, I like your posts, a lot of common sense and practical advice, but you have also misread a few things. I really don't mind an older man, as far as I can fancy him (I've been in ltr with a much older man), it's just the one who is asking me out now via online thing I don't fancy (maybe so far) unfortunately. He is of that background by the way, speaks well, sensitive, dresses in the trad way, lives in the country - all absolutely great as he also is not too typical (not entitled, studies alternative stuff) and we hit it off in correspondence and on meeting (once), but I just don't feel attracted physically atm. So it's not impossible. I'm not sure why you can't see 'what i can offer', he can see it for one - as to younger men than him, after all is said and done everyone wants to be appreciated, so surely if I appreciate and fancy him, and he fancies me, the hypothetical guy of nearer to my age or older, then I already have something to offer. I do love the country by the way, and dogs, I'm just not a rider or shooter, many women of that group aren't actively either btw.
Aliitlestraner, sorry I'm just being honest, it's hte first time i aired in 'in public' and knew it wouldn't be popular, but I'm sure there are stranger things then this, and how many people would admit to it in rl but secretly fancy the posh types? I like the arty type e.g. art dealers or related but not so well paid. I would join charities, but how? all i can see is jobs in charity shops advertised or some hands-on medical stuff. Yes it's narrow but at least i know what i like. I went through a phase when i fancied just all sorts of men and it never worked as respect for them was lacking or the sensitivity on his part.

I'd love to join the Classics BA, raven, as I also like literature andthe arts, so I would have tha tto share. I do wish i was younger but at that stage I was working. I did go on a number of History of Art courses as it's to do with work, but the students were all women (it wasn't full time degree ones). Surely History of Art is very much a common interest with many of the type i describe.

world you don't mean to criticise - I'm not against criticism, but you do say mean things 'very weird and odd' and you know it, yet Liz seems to understand me perfectly well and even though she doesn't fancy posh men herself, she can calmy see my point of view as nothing weird! That's exact;y it, that the world struggles to understand why in te UK people just accept the attitude and logically, this attitude must be fed by others, otherwise why would this social group still feel so entitiiled?? As I explained, probably not too well, I don't like the whole 'posh' group of people, but the gentle possibly shy aty types who i see trough work sometimes, there aern't many and being the gentle type, yes they do get led by women and quickly snapped - nothing wrong for the women to do this, I would do the same if I was in their place. It's just that even these gentle guys ae not open minded or brave enough to try something diffreent and I'm amazed at hte level of having blinkers on in London , in the 21st cen! I'm not saying they should just date any woman they meet, but surely the individual merit counts, not what she is like 'on paper'. It seems like they are not even willing to look before they decide. I don't get it.
As I say I had ltrs with other types, so I'm hardly just sitting and fantasising. As to connection, my exH was well-off and educated, my age, not from toff-type family, but we lived in chelsea so of course I was always in close proximity (more so fulham though is typical), but even he found these groups inaccessible, he went to a public but not boarding school. Ex was good enough for me obviously as I married him, we had other problems. But after divorce I naturally fell into dating in the area as it was hurtful that while many posh guys found me attractive and showed it there was this barrier that serious relationships aer no-no, and it's hte same with women as to friendships btw, it's like you don't sound like then so you aer out. This has put me off, and i gone on dating other types of men, it's just here we go on internet - just came across exactly the same.
And whoever said I show them that I'm lower - how? I keep my admiration to myself and i don't beg, do I? In fact I try to be a little cocky almost if I come across an total arse. my pride suffered in silence a few times with the nice ones but i never chase men generally, couple of attempts is as far as i go, and usually even just one.
I fully can see that this thread is strange, but this is just an aspect of my mentality/life that's been under intense discussion, I do not engage in this on daily/weekly/monthly basis! As I say I'm vey analyticasl from an academic family, it's getting to the essence of things that gets me (when i can't).
As to wanting to improve my social standing, you can say this about anyone who marries 'up' including the said Kate Middleton, who was never popular with Will's crowd due to her family being common as is well known. But it's bever a whole story, almost never! Some people aer seriously drawn to the type whether part of it social climbing isn't that relevant, it's like some women want to marry a very successful or very brainy man, or a pop star, and also this would raise them socially but she is also respecting and admiring the man and if all are happy, that's what matters. If it was JUST social climbing you can go the route of female friendships or push yourself into a type of job where that scene is. You don't have to date or marry the type. If i was just after this, I'd grab the current older guy with both hands despite not fancying him Grin

OP posts:
worldcitizen · 25/09/2012 17:10

Hello allchange I am sorry, I must be the least helpful person, but I've said so before. Please don't take everything you read here to heart. Read and listen to all responses, and then you make the choices of what to take into consideration and what not...
I am sorry, I cannot help youSad. I wish you the best of luck with your dating endeavoursSmileThanks

Offred · 25/09/2012 17:20

You just don't get it op. Entitlement is not something given to people by others and it exists across all "classes" and "types" of people. This is not a problem with Britain but with your own attitudes.

Offred · 25/09/2012 17:22

And geegee's point was not that you need to get into shooting. It was that you complain that you do not seem to be what is wanted by people you categorise as a certain type and if this is the case she can't understand why you would try and make them want you when you say they don't.

allchangeplease · 25/09/2012 17:23

I'd rather a decent, good humoured, reasonably clever guy with a regional accent of some sort. ...but, a bona fide 'toff', no, he'd have to break the mold tbh, for me anyway!
I agree with this totally Liz, never said that I'd prefer a posh arsey or stupid man or someone who doesn't love me, to anyone as you described in first sentence. But if i had a choice of all most other qualities being equal, you get the idea. Of course he'd have to break the mould for me too, as by definition he wouldn't try and date me if he's not a little open-minded. It's still his attitude to me that counts most after all. I ve had an unrequited love thing where i was hoping for a long while (not with a posh man at all) and I know I'll never do that again with anyone. That's why all this is pretty much theoretical unless I get an unexpected chance. I'm of the school of thought 'better try and fail, than not try at all' that's why I don't understand such close-mindedness.

OP posts:
Offred · 25/09/2012 17:28

The only person who is being closed-minded on here is you though with your neat categorisations of people. You'd be a million times better off I suspect if you stopped thinking of men as "types" and searching for ones who break a non-existent "mould". Every person is an individual and it seems you are so obsessed by the importance of social standing and categorisation that I bet you really miss out on some great guys because you are so busy telling them who they are. It is quite off putting. I get the impression you think you are an individual and "different" and that this is something you value about yourself, it is a shame you don't look at other people that way too.

allchangeplease · 25/09/2012 17:43

Offred who knows whether they want me? The arty men i mentioned seemed to like me in the interactions I had, I just don't have any access to try it out, or so that they can ask me out. I asked two men out, but they turned out to be married. I don't mind if some of them shoot, I just don't see why should I. My ex (non-toff) also went to shoots but with his own family/friends, it didn't bother him that I didn't go. But I feel I have a lot in common with the gentle/poetic types, but frustrated that their group is so closed as they aer surrounded by very snobby close-minded friends/family. Possibly even some of these are snobby, well, the internet poet is.
I'm not the only one mentioning entitled attitudes, a few English posters said the same. I don't quite understand how my views make them entitiled? I was taken aback when I first came across it. I see it with wealthy people and I don't like it but i can understand - possibly he worked hard for the money and achieved and feels he's better/more talented/hardworking than others, not nice but logically understandable. But these people are in nice pleasant jobs because the parents have networked (especially in the arts/property world) and they are not high achievers, so why are they still so patronising to all, even to decent inteligent attractive people as friends and as dates? I mean as a group, of course there are exceptions (whom I was hoping to meet, and i did come across but not single ones). I suppose it's just ingrained. Recently I had an uppity girl much younger than me being patronising/bossy to me - wtf? I stood up to her but not enough as again I was taken aback I couldn't think of a proper put-down. Of course you can be sorry for them too as sooner or later they could well be put down to earth by others. I come across quite a bit of antagonism of classes in the UK actually. If htey were less patronising they wouldn't put people backs up, it's not even clever.

OP posts:
allchangeplease · 25/09/2012 17:45

The mould comment was made by Liz not me, but I agree with it. If you lived in Fulham you'd see the neat catehory in all its glory, Offred! It's shocking, the [patronising is just Shock! If I didn't happen to fancy the gentle few guys and girls (as friends) so strongly, I'd definitely stay away.

OP posts:
allchangeplease · 25/09/2012 17:47

yes world, thanks, I did thank you for letting me air this yesterday which has helped a lot, even though I'm still processing all the replies and my own attitudes.

OP posts:
Offred · 25/09/2012 17:48

Giving up now... You are not getting it at all and I'm surprised at myself for carrying on making the same point over and over when you seem to keep reading the opposite of what I'm saying into it. I wish you luck in your dating exploits.

allchangeplease · 25/09/2012 17:52

busy telling them who they are I don't tell anyone who they are if you mean non-posh guys. My unrequited love was a non-posh guy, couldn't be further in fact. I do make exception to my type, but ny type doesn't seem to make exceptions when it comes to dating!
I don't tell the posh ones either as I only now notice the nice few - as i say I don't like many in that group but strongly like the gentle ones, obviously I don't criticise them. The others I avoid, some of what i described happened when i was younger.

OP posts:
allchangeplease · 25/09/2012 17:53

exceptions

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 25/09/2012 17:56

These posts with no paragraphs are the reason I had to step away from this thread for a while.

It is very odd in tone, too.

I hope you have a good dinner tonight, OP, but please, please, try not to be so desperate.

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