Just had a Big Talk with dh about his drinking and other issues.

[bushymcbush]

I told him that if he chooses to continue drinking we will have to split up because I choose to no longer live my life in misery.

We've been here before and he usually makes a token effort to cut down (never stop altogether ) for a short time - a couple of weeks maybe - then reverts to drinking at least a bottle of wine by himself every night. Sometimes more.

Before some of you tell me that it's not that much and what's the problem, I should add that he does this even though we have very little money coming in right now and 2 dc to support. He really struggles to not drink. I don't want to spend time with him when he is drinking and I don't want to have sex with him when he is drinking, so it's a massive barrier to us enjoying our relationship. I no longer go back downstairs after putting the dc to bed but prefer to stay upstairs in 'my' space while he remains downstairs with his wine in front of the telly in 'his' space. That's not a marriage I can bear to be in any longer.

Other issue is his being out of work and doing almost nothing to get work. He has had some freelance stuff this month but he didn't seek it out, it came to him. We desperately need him to be earning money or we may not be able to put food on the table next month (yet he still spends minimum £50 week on booze rather than save for next month).

I suggested to him that the two things (drinking and lack of motivation / direction) might be linked but he doesn't think they are. To be fair, he has been drinking like this for 20 years (I know, I was stupid for marrying him and irresponsible for having children with him - please don't say it, it's never that simple and I can't change that now) but he had plenty of work until 2 years ago. But now the work he does has dwindled to nothing (because of the industry he is in) he just sits and waits for something to happen and complains that he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. In 6 months he has applied for 3 jobs. Not bloody good enough.

So he said tonight he will 'do something about' the drinking and I suggested he needs some kind of help with that or we'll be back at square one very soon and I won't go back to square one again.

He said he wont drink tomorrow night and we'll talk again.

I'm posting this as a record for myself of what's happening because I'm determined that this time, things will get properly and permanently sorted or its the end of the road. Also, I'm posting for hand holding and support, and to ask you to kick me up the arse if I let things slide. I don't want to live like this any more and I don't want my dd's growing up with it either.

If you've read this far, thank you.

Teenyweeny, i posted my story on the first page of this thread and that explains how it all came about but basically my DP works shifts and got mixed up with his days and drank when he should have been at work. This was the tipping point. He decided that day he wasn't drinking any more. He went to the doctors the next day and was prescribed fluoxetine and a short course of diazepam.

it happened so quick really, i was at work, came home with DS and DP was in bed and work had been ringing, concerned something had happened. That was the shock he needed to realise it was running his life.

We are still AF here, hoping you are all having a peaceful evening.

Ajaney, the wonderful part of your DP's recovery is that he instigated it himself. Very, very positive.

Mine, on the other hand, has been pushed into it, so long term the chances aren't nearly as good, but he really is trying and I am very proud of him right now. Last night he was a bit agitated but he said that in a few weeks he will be more used to it and less edgy. Even saying that shows me that he thinks he's in it for the long haul.

On the job front - DH has a trade as well as being a qualified teacher, and has agreed (after much prompting from me) to advertise his services to try and supplement the non existent supply teaching work. Unfortunately, he has absolutely no business sense or any clue how to go about it, so I'm doing all the leg work.

He has just this minute come down from settling DD and suggested we watch a film together - I'm delighted - we haven't done so for - maybe years.

Bushy, really good that your DP is making a real effort and that you are enjoying some quality couple time together, this is the first thing to go with an alcohol dependent partner.

I tried the nagging route to varying degrees over the years but in my case, because i had DS who is now 2, i had little rime to monitor and argue about bottles of wine. In one of our mare chat since AF, DP said it was niggling him that i didn't care anymore lol!

But a reality check tonight. My DP has been off and on his own today so he has been out riding on his motorbike. He has told me that he went past a lovely looking country pub and wanted to go in 'for a cold one' (his words). He then tells me that he had the beginnings of a craving yesterday. So we are by no means out of the woods yet.

Ajaney, I don't think the craving ever goes away. The key thing is to recognise the trigger - and I can well see how a fun, relaxing, hot day out would be a strong one - and then not act on it.

Tribpot, you're right, it is all about triggers. It's not as simple as just saying 'I am stopping drinking', its staying stopped which requires the hard work. It had been going so well, I kind of forgot that the cravings and desire are always going to be there in some shape or form. This is why he needs to want to do it for himself, rather than because I have nagged him into it.

Hope everyone having a nice evening

That's it, Ajaney - on some level it's a constant act of will, to stay sober. Planning for your triggers and knowing they are there makes that easier. So for example I stayed in a hotel in London recently, and that would definitely normally be a trigger (travelling = boring = drinking) so I was ready to ask them to lock the mini-bar if there was one. Fortunately there wasn't. A friend then said 'oh shall I get a bottle of wine and we can drink it at the hotel?' and it was very easy to say 'well no, I can't do that' (she knows about my drink problem but may not have realised - as many of my friends seem not to - that I need not to drink ever again, it wasn't a question of sobering up and being more sensible in future). The friend was much less of a trigger than the empty hotel room would have been.

Unfortunately this act of will is only sustainable if you truly, truly want to do it.

Hi Bushy, very pleased to hear things are going well for you. Sounds like your DH is taking it on board. (My DH is currently crashed out in the chair after two beers and the best part of two bottles of wine - he has had a bloody awful week and has a lot of worries at the moment to do with his family, but I can't help thinking a trip to the gym and an early night would be a much more positive way of dealing with the stress!).

Teenyweeny do you think the counselling is helping at all? Sounds like your DH is not using any of the alternative stress relievers they discussed. I'm sorry you spent another evening alone .

I should add, my DH chose to drink last night. I was pleased to see he only bought one bottle of wine - no beers, no second bottle. I had thought after 5 dry days he might go on a binge but he didn't.

Bushy, I am pleased to see your DP did not have a binge last night. You sound like you are happy with the current situation so I hope it continues for you.

I think mumsnet should consider having a dedicated category around alcohol related problems as it seems to be so common. I have been on the brave babes battle bus thread, reading about 'the other side' of it if you like and it's plain to see the difficulties for those trying to cut down and those trying to stay AF.

Hope everyone is enjoying good weather and a nice day today.

I'm interested to see if he brings a bottle home tonight. He is working this evening. We have a social engagement tomorrow, which DH will be drinking at. If he stays dry tonight he will have stuck to our agreement for a full week. But I have a feeling he might try it tonight, knowing I'll be in bed when he gets home. Perhaps I'm being over suspicious.

But something else is bothering me. I thought that the alcohol was the problem in our relationship. I thought that if we could eliminate that, everything else would fall into place. I thought I'd feel better. But I don't. I feel just as sad and frustrated and disappointed in my marriage as before. I see other couples who are really in love, really compatible, and I see that I don't have that magic 'thing' that they do. I can't explain properly right now - I need to get my thoughts straight. It's just that I wonder if I've blamed it all on the drink when it's been something more fundamental than that all along.

Maybe I'm expecting too much too soon.

But bushy you haven't eliminated alcohol! He's still an alcoholic whether he has managed not to drink 4 or 5 nights this week or not. He will still be thinking about alcohol as are you. His alcoholism will still have cause damage to the intimacy which you will have to work to overcome.

But a word of caution, don't be too sure about other people's relationships, often things are not like they seem.

It is very early days, bushy. I can't really imagine what it would be like to be giving up alcohol but then not giving it up, to me it would be like reinfecting with the flu every weekend. But you can assume that at least some of the symptoms of withdrawal are affecting him and he'll need time to adjust. You say you thought things would fall into place if you eliminated alcohol - of course, you haven't eliminated it.

You also still have the other major elephant in the room, which is his attitude to work. Even now he's agreed to look for work you're having to do everything to facilitate (enable?) that. And even if that eventually gets sorted and he's making more of an effort you may find that it's too just been too much for too long - but don't borrow trouble at this stage. I guess it could be weeks before he starts to feel better, particularly if his diet has been poor whilst he's been drinking.

It might help if you had some outside support - I know your parents are helping financially but you have a huge amount on your plate. You don't want to approach Al-Anon, but what about counselling of some kind? Given your (understandable) ambivalence to your marriage, perhaps even Relate on your own?

Bushy

You are wasting your time with this man but you have to realise that pertinent fact for yourself.

Remember the play - you're still on that merry go around aren't you?.

What is the longest period of time he has ever gone without drink to date?. Five days without alcohol is nothing in the great scheme of things. A 20 plus year addiction to alcohol is not easily if at all solved.

Many people who suffer with depression and other illnesses/issues use alcohol to self-medicate. Your dh won't be able to tackle any other possible underlying problems until he has confronted his alcohol problem.

But Atilla is right. He could be stone cold sober, never touched a drop for 6 months, two years, whatever and then have a relapse. It takes a lot of effort for an alcoholic to stay sober. He needs professional help.

Agreeing with fairienuff 'self medicate with alcohol' is the term my DP's counsellor keeps using. He is on a course of anti-depressants and has been referred for stress counselling.

I honestly think proffessional help is needed for most people who are alcohol dependent.

Thinking of you bushy. It is a difficult time for you right now.

I just feel so worn down and emotionally tired. I don't know if I've got any fight left in me. But I know I'm going to need bucket loads of energy if this relationship is going anywhere. Do you know what fucks me off though? It's always me doing the fighting. I know he doesn't want us to split so why doesn't he seem to give a shiny shit about us most of the time?

I suppose partly bushy because he never needs to. You do it all for him. You want him to pull his finger out with work but basically all he's done is consented to you running around after getting him some work. It's no wonder you feel tired - and used?

You badly need to take some time for yourself in all this. You've run yourself ragged to hold it all together, and you've got another day of it tomorrow. What about Monday, on Monday can you make some me time?

Hi Bushy, I can certainly resonate with those feelings. I feel like this a lot of the time myself. I think one thing to try and remember is that his drinking is not about you or your children. He's not doing to deliberately piss you off, he's doing it because of what is going on his head and how he feels about himself and how much he values himself. He probably does care about you very much, but he is not able to change without professional help (maybe he wouldn't be able to even with that help). Perhaps a different way of looking at it is to consider the extent to which you are prepared to live with the consequences of this behaviour.

Have you tried going to any al-anon meetings? I haven't physically been to any meetings for various reasons, but I do subscribe to an online one called Courage to Change and it's very powerful. I have also bought some of the al anon books. Of course I am not necessarily putting it all into practise but it's food for thought and it has taken away some of the self-blame, for me at least.

As for my DH, well he had the DD's all day today because I was away doing some training. He had a lovely day with them, took them out (including I think buying my birthday present). However you'd have thought he deserved a bloody medal from the way he preened about what a nice day they'd had. He had lit a barbeque ready for when I got home but nothing else had been done. Tonight he drank about half a bottle of white left over from last night, a bottle of red, and about another 3/4 of another bottle of white. I think he may have also had a beer. He was asleep by 9.15, the DD's were still up. I explained it by saying he's had a hard week - which he undeniably has, he is shattered emotionally and physically. I can't feel angry towards him tonight, I just feel incredibly sad.

On Monday I'll try to make some me time, but it will have to be with the baby. I do virtually all the childcare despite him not working (and I can't leave the baby with him anyway because she is ebf).

The baby is about six months, isn't she? Have you tried expressing milk? She must only feeding every few hours or so, so you could go out even if it was just for a walk to clear your head or a child-free trip to the supermarket in between feeds.

Bushy, I recommend you read every post that Attila has made on the subject of how you CANNOT save a relationship with an alcoholic unilaterally

Teeny,

You may well find the following uncomfortable to read Teeny but I make no apologies for that. If you have already read it then ok but it bears repeating.

What is the difference between those who walk away from an alcoholic at the first sign of trouble and those who cling to them?. There may be no black-and-white answers, but here are some characteristics that seem to be common to those who can't just walk away:

Low Self-Esteem -- For whatever reason, those in abusive relationships usually have a very low opinion of themselves. They may think they are unattractive, or too overweight, or not smart enough. Consequently, they hold on to their present relationship, because they believe that no one else would ever want them. They think it's the only relationship they will ever have.

Abandonment Issues Perhaps they were abandoned by a parent in childhood and the loss was traumatic. They go through life trying to avoid feeling that way again. They hang on because being in an abusive relationship is better than being left alone their greatest fear.

Need to be Needed -- They confuse pity with love. All of their relationships are with people who "need" them or are dependent on them in some way. They are rescuers. They don't leave the relationship because they think the alcoholic could not survive without their help.

Controlling They have a strong need to be in control. They take on responsibilities that do not belong to them paying the bills, repairing the house, mowing the lawn -- because those things just would not get done without them. They may complain about the alcoholic's lack of responsibility in these areas, but many times the truth is they would have it no other way because it satisfies their need to be needed.

No Boundaries -- They have trouble setting personal boundaries, standing up for themselves. They have a problem saying "no." They may try to set boundaries, but then feel guilty and allow those lines to be crossed, which usually causes more problems in the relationship than never having set the boundary in the first place.

Addicted to Excitement -- Many who are involved in alcoholic relationships find that they are attracted to the excitement, the chaos, the uncertainty, and even the crises. They cannot stand to be bored. They would find "normal" people terribly dull. In times of relative calm, sometimes they will even create a crisis, just to avoid boredom. For them, life must be a constant soap opera.

Acceptance Seeking -- Since many who end up in alcoholic relationships grew up in alcoholic homes themselves, they are comfortable with alcoholics because they know they will not be judged. Many are attracted to alcoholics in the first place because that is behavior that they are used to and most comfortable being around.

Martyr Complex -- There are those who seem to enjoy being in the role of a martyr, a perpetual victim, for some psychological reason. They enjoy the sympathy they receive when they tell their friends the suffering they have to endure as a result of the alcoholic's behavior. These martyr personalities seem to have the most problems if the alcoholic seeks treatment and finds sobriety.

Hiding Out -- As long as they have the alcoholic's behavior to focus upon, it takes the spotlight off of their own shortcomings. If they can point the finger at the alcoholic and blame all of the family's problems on his behavior, no one notices the part they are playing, including themselves sometimes. They are "safe" in the relationship because they can hide their own flaws behind the many mistakes of the alcoholic.

NOT everyone in an abusive relationship has all of the above characteristics, but most have at least some of them.

I feel for you Teeny, but particularly more so your daughters. They are the ones who are really suffering in all this by being caught in this crossfire and they are seeing and hearing it all or at least far more than you realise. You are playing a part in his alcoholism as well (see also the play scenario) and you minimised his actions to your DDs yesterday. His frankly crap private addiction specialist at £60 a time is also enabling him by excusing this alcoholic man in front of him/her by citing lifestyle issues and long hours. Your Hs primary relationship is and continues to be with drink; his main thought is where the next drink is coming from.

If either one or both of your daughters entered into relationships with alcoholics as adults I would not be entirely surprised; this is what you have both taught them about relationships. This is truly NOT a legacy you want to leave them.

DH bought a bottle on his way home last night but did not drink it. He said he bought it with the intention of drinking it but he decided not to break our bargain.

Great, but for some reason I feel numb towards him.

Bushy I have just read through the whole thread.

I really feel for you that you are giving your marriage one lasth chance. I understand that you want to feel you have done everything possible to save your marriage so you can look back with no thoughts of what if I'd done more.

It must be incredibly difficult knowing in the back of your head that things won't change and this is the end in all likelihood.

The realisation that things aren't great now he isn't drinking every night are really down to the fact that the drinking was masking other problems in your relationship. Your dh is not really invested in family life.